Traditional Korean Sword

As of the beginning of September I won't be doing any teaching at the High School OR the Community College level. And I am going through some pretty rough times right now as to how much I really want to continue with MA in general or Korean MA in particular. Don't think it has anything to do with whats happened the last 10 days or so. Fact is that some of the stuff that has gone down is a symptom of a much larger disease. Let me give you an example of what I mean.

Lets say that there is an area here on MAP---- I'm just positing here---and we can call it the "ABC" area. People who come to that area are interested in ABC and some of them even practice ABC-do. But the fact is that for the overwhelming majority of those practitioners what they do is a "hobby" and NOT REALLY a "way of life" (K. "-DO"). Sure, they get dressed-up in their costumes and they make a great show of posturing and shouting and maybe they even learn a bit of S-D along the way. But when the class is over and the uniform comes off the meaning of what they just did went with it.

Some folks here have made a great fuss about how Korean Sword, for instance, could not have possibly survived for 30 years under Japanese rule. Nobody thinks its strange that Korean sword survived the Mongol Invasion which was a LOT longer and a LOT more thorough in wasting the country of Korea. But I think this is because people who think this way are measuring according to their own lack of passion and investment. When we Westerners are denied something, we just let it go and start chasing something else.

For me, I have a huge bond with KMA and KS and I get dragged down with all of the crappy bickering for its own sake. Its just easier to go my way. Any of this making any sense? Its kind of a long-winded answer. I think you just hit a button and I went with it.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Well said. And as a person imparting information its not my place to say "this guy here is THE One." Right away the HDGD people would say "no" as would everyone else. I've already stated who I consider MY authority. Everybody else will probably have mileage that varies. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

The ninjutsu forum is the same... :-(

But this is the interne, and it seems its full of "make pretend" masters.

Dont sweat 'em. They don't really matter.

 

BTW

Noone has brought it up so I thought I would push this form to the front.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xjUJm-wHRc&feature=channel&list=UL"]Sa Bang Jeok Sul Geom Beop.flv - YouTube[/ame]

If this discussion were about SHOTOKAN Karate, the five Introductory Sword forms would be likened to the PINAN Kata. OTOH this form is much more like the Karate "free forms" (see: Bassai Dai).
SA BANG JEOK SUL GEOM BEOP translates loosely to "Sword Methods Against the Crowd" or more likely "Sword Methods Against the Mob". Since it is close to Black Belt, but still before CHODAN, it is still practiced with a SSANGSOODO. Enjoy.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Chris, I must admit that I never had that much respect for you nor care for the way you post.... I do now.

 

Except that you'd be providing opinion (in this case), not information, hopefully backing it up with reasons for your opinion. I'm not getting into how much information you're actually giving here, though.

Hmm, do you really want this one examined? There's not only a lot of the exact same issues with poor usage of a sword, bad cutting mechanics (possibly even worse in this one, frankly, with the "swiping" hacking cuts), over extended cuts, wide open positions, poorly positioned blade, and more, but then there's a new range of incredibly questionable actions, such as the raising up onto your toes, lifting one leg, and turning with a raising cut... and nearly taking your own foot off, as well as being completely unbalanced during the entire action. This is, if I'm being honest, even worse from a technical, tactical, and combative point of view than the earlier ones.

I also must say that the idea of "you learn the forms with this type of sword, because it is better for large muscle groups (???), then with other swords later" really seems out of whack with reality as well. This is just one of the major issues I see, at least.

 

Now I may be way out here but I watched that vid and found this suggested by YouTube:

Is this related or a different art?

It just looks full of holes to me. Described as "overwhelming" yet seems nothing like.

Any ideas?

I should probably need to see paired training.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeuikEBI6kg"]Korean Two Sword Technique.mpeg - YouTube[/ame]

 

I'm not sure where you are going with the "way of life" thing but for the record, I train in martial arts as a "hobby" and I believe the majority of the people that train in them do too.

But I don't get dressed up in costumes or shout

Seriously though, this was a little OT.

 

G-J..... you may have come up with the best idea yet.

If you look at these MUYE 24 BAN presentations you will notice that they are part of a larger collection of all of the material from the MUYE TOBO TONG JI---that book published in 1795. My point? Somewhere on YOU TUBE there must be a clip of the paired Combat material. I don't have a clip of my doing the exact same form available to me, and I don't know how I would get it onto the INTERNET even if I did. But that material is identified in the MU YE TOBO TONG JI (and by extension, in the MUYE SHINBO (1759) ) as practice of Combat material between two partners. Let me see what I can find. That might really be something for you to look at. Not because its done well, but because it is such a great example of what the Korean approach to combat is about albeit not done very well. Give me a bit.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Bah! Genius for 5 minutes! Lol

 

Well....just think about it for a second. Just give some reflection.

How many people do you know that eat, sleep and breath some Sport? Have you ever known anyone who would call in "sick" to work so they could go to an Open Day Game? Have you ever known a Tennis, or Golf person who spends every waking hour chasing after the "perfect serve" or the flawless drive? My son is a die-hard CUBS fan and I know people who live for the Greenbay Packers. They are Fans (IE "fanatics") in the full sense of the word.

Now, how many people do you know who feel that way about Martial Arts? I can think of about 5 out of hundreds of people I have known and met. Thats what I am talking about.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Sorry...I was being effusive, but I was thinking you conclude I was being sarcastic. Can't tell how things are going to come across on these posts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I'm closing this thread pending mod discussion.

The Bear.

 

Right, I've re-opened this thread. I think it's important that all arts and practioners who present themselves as experts have the opportunity to present data and have the data rigiously critiqued. It isn't a personal attack to demand a high standard of evidence and explanation. It is all part of the process and anyone who knows what they are talking about should have no difficulty in answering those questions. I certainly welcome questioning on all of my HEMA material. So keep it clean but be rigiorous.

The Bear.

 

Good deal...just in time.....

There seems to be a lot of talk about "combat" and its a given that we are not going to find authentic footage of two people trying actually kill each other with swords. We can look at Forms (K. HYUNG), at validation cutting (K. Begi) and Methods (K. BEOP). We can also look at Drills (K. BON). I came across this execution of KYO JUN BO (lit: Combat Examples), which like much of the rest of the MUYE TOBO TONGJI is not expressed as one long form instead of its original intention as a series of two-person drills. I'm not sure how I feel about this other than to say that, once again----IMHO--- its executed TOO DAMN FAST. And, yes, those are real blades. FWIW.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDRM8eFVCwk"]Joseon(korea) of excellence swordsmanship/ sharp sword - YouTube[/ame]

For comparison....if you watch this presentation....the last few seconds show a part of the same drills....also done too damn fast. However, notice how the practitioners are just banging their MOK GEUM against each other as though they are doing a drill in Stick Fighting. This is wrong SOOOO many ways. Each of those individual moves you are seeing are executed in the original Drills to include an identified attacking method in concert with a responding parry and cut or thrust. This is how traditional Korean sword gets a bad rap. FWIW.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YE5XPxXutQ"]Traditional Korean Sword and Weapons Documentary - YouTube[/ame]

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Bruce, this is simply terrible and bears no relation what so ever to actual fighting with a sword. I do ALOT of full speed steel fighting (only wearing a fencing mask for protection) with semi-sharp blades to accurately test technique. I can assure you there are more holes than a swiss cheese in these movements. You simply don't have time for large movements and wide fencing. It just doesn't work against a trained swordsman. This is the reality. Real swordsmanship isn't fancy or elegant. It's basic, fast and brutal.

The Bear.

 

Yeah, we're not looking for footage of people actually fighting with live blades, we're looking for combatively applicable principles and mechanics... but, in the interest of starting over, can you tell us a few things about this clip? You mention that it's a combat drill (Kyo Jun Bo), and that this is a two-person method... is it supposed to be drilling two people working together against a group, or is it the two people against each other? Are these drills meant to be immediately combat applicable, or are they more in line with movement exercises, drilling principles rather than actual combative actions?

 

Once again, I'm not here to defend how these folks are doing what they do. I don't agree with it, but its all that I have to work with. You're absolutely right, "real life is messy". I remember watching some of the stuff the European Stylists do....in fact I think one of the clips may have been your own folks IDK.... but it looks crappy only until you realize what folks are working to do.

In the case of the clips I put up two things are important to remember.

a.)These are not one long form but a series of one, two and three movement exchanges. The MYTBTJ identifies each method or technique by a single name even though there are a number of movements. IDK what the Jap. Traditions call their pre-arranged 2-person forms but its rathermuch the same concept. My own teacher had his KUMDO students practice the BON form the KENDO tradition and you can see those on YOU TUBE. Folks who wanted to study GEUM BEOP learned the Korean BON and those are recorded almost completely in the HWA RANG KUMDO Assn. textbook towards the back.

b.) These were expected to be done with focus and goal-orientation. What I mean is that each BON is a condition or situation that teaches a particular principle that serves an "end". Just banging wooden swords together is a travesty. Thats how understanding of material gets lost. For instance that how you get movements in traditional MTHand forms that nobody knows what they are anymore. FWIW.

 

I don't think the issue is how "messy" it looks, Bruce, but more about how flawed the principles and actions are, such as the constant turning of the back, the little leaps, the method of simply rotating your wrist to "cut", which, with blades that long, makes it very difficult to get proper power or control, the cramped body postures, and so on.

They're called "kata". You probably only know the Okinawan form... but most Japanese ones are paired forms. And are you saying that your teacher had his students practicing Kendo no Kata? Where did he learn that from, as it is quite different to everything you've shown.

Yeah... I really don't know what you're trying to say here... nor what "MTHand forms" are...

 

Korean swordsmanship has a terrible credibility problem but instead of trying to correct the problems (what ever their origin), the practioners seem to fall back on politicking and propaganda. In the early days, HEMA had the exact same problem. However, the practioners worked damn hard and learned from a variety of other arts on how to improve practice and raised their game.

This debate has never been about Korean swordsmanship, it's about bad swordsmanship. EVERYTHING you have shown is simply bad swordsmanship. I'm sorry Bruce but this is the hard truth. All the other sword practioners can see it and are trying every method of explaining it to you but nothing seems to go in. The sad fact of the matter is that who ever gave you this knowledge either passed it on incorrectly and didn't know themselves properly.

This is the harsh truth. Your sword art is a display art. There are lots of arts like this and if you are happy with that then fine. However, you can sell it as a real sword art and not expect people to roll eyes and snicker. It would be like presenting Bob Anderson stage fighting as HEMA. People would just laugh at you.

The Bear.