Traditional Korean Sword

But there's also a persistent effort to identify and evaluate good examples of Korean swordwork. That's the opposite process of falling back on hearsay. It's a call to rely on observable, verifiable, current evidence.

Honestly, you said "Boots" as though that were self-evidently a bad resource. I personally haven't the slightest idea how heavily to weight that as an academic source. But, for the sake of shortening the "he said, he said" game, can people perhaps agree on what sources would be credible?

I'm a community college teacher and counselor myself, by the way. Relevance zero, but I'm not entirely sorry to divert from the subject of this thread for a moment.

Regards.


Stuart

 

Who is the most respected traditional KSA practitioner around right now? Who do 'you' (that is all of you) admire? Why do you admire them? What are they doing right?

 

The only issue that I have had from my first post----on the OTHER thread---- was the realization that in discussions like this a common strategy is to put a person on the defensive and then knockdown his answers just as fast as they are presented. Want my honest opinion, Peter? Honestly, I don't think my posts are being read at all. At best, maybe they might be scanned-over and then the person writes what they were going to write anyhow.

BUT....

Just for fun lets take a look at a couple of Resources that people SHOULD be looking at. I'm not saying this is an exhaustive library, just some of the more informative things I have found.

One of the earliest resources I read when studying-up on the Japanese Occupation was
The Abacus and the Sword: The Japanese Penetration of Korea, 1895-1910 (Twentieth Century Japan: The Emergence of a World Power) Publication Date: April 24, 1998 | ISBN-10: 0520213610 | ISBN-13: 978-0520213616

In hand with that was
Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910-1945
and the a number of books on the "Black Ocean Society"---got a bit sidetracked.

As far as the user of the Japanese material and how it got to Korea, I started with a website on the Russo-Japanese War
(see: http://www.russojapanesewar.com/ and this was where I ran into the material about how the Japanese single-handed sabres introduced in Japan by the French and German Police advisors in the 1870-s and 80-s had failed to deal with the power and leverage of the much larger Russian soldies and their longer rifles with bayonets.

The single common thread that I found with the more reading that I have done is that the "popular" History concerning all aspects of Korea is very much a construction by individuals who have some agenda to sell. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

And I'm just interested in the 12 cuts idea.

I'm more interested (ATM) in that than the political differences. Should the thread be split?

 

Boots' claim to fame was a reflection on the nature of Korean armourment. I have a copy of his book at home in Illinois. Good stuff but it does not speak to much more than what weapons he ran across and why or why not. (What if I went out onto the plains and found arrowheads from the Native Americans. I have a collection of arrowheads....and now I know "what" about the guy who used them?) Boots wrote in the 1930-s which means that we are talking about a resource that is narrowly focused in subject and some 70 or 80 years past. If a person wants to talk about the nature of Korean practices and the survival of those practices during years of hardship, I suggest that we very much need to be using current resources that take in as much of the range of existing documents and institutions that one can find. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Are you sure it's others who aren't reading your posts, Bruce? I'm asking as you seem to miss questions people post, misinterpret what they're saying, read things that aren't there, and more. For the record, I read each and every post made... and, if you want, I can go through the whole thing and pick you up on a range of things that don't really gel, or are completely wrong.... for the record.

 

That's enough.

Continually hammering on this issue isn't going to solve it. If anyone here isn't getting satisfaction from this thread, it's really unlikely that you're going to change that by doggedly pursuing the same approach you have been. This goes for all parties. I suggest that everyone get comfy with the idea that you're not going to get resolution here. This isn't a mod action. I'm not locking anything, or even recommending such. I'm just telling you, things are unlikely to turn around here. And if people persist in pursuing this in this fashion, it seems to me that they're more interested in the argument than the facts. Just my view.

It may be time for folks to walk away.

 

Sorry, G-J....you got sorta lost in translation, there.

The Koreans speak two different things: what they mean and what they say. If you ask a typical Korean how many cuts there are to Korean sword he will tell you "Nine" (actually 8 cuts and one thrust). A HUGE part of this has to do with Korean mysticism and the special powers associated with certain numbers. The number Three, for instance, is hugely important, such that if you have Three Three-s there is all sorts of amzing power involved. Needless to say the is a preference for using the number "9". However, when the actual material is executed, there is a clear difference between, say, a "Steep Descending cut" which commonly targets the cleft of the neck and shoulder, and the "Shallow Descending Cut" which cuts under the raised arm---through or just beneath the armpit----and into the abdomen.

The easiest way to identify the 12 cuts is to look at the face of a clock and imagine cuts from each number towards, and through, the center of the clock. This isn't unique to Korean sword. South American Knife fighters have been using the same paradigm for years. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

While I agree it's highly unlikely that I'd get any answers out of Bruce myself (which I find rather odd, considering he started this thread to allow discussion of the very clips I wanted discussion of... ), what I'm doing isn't so much argument for argument's sake, it's really more providing a counter to Bruce's voice, offering questions against his comments so that other readers get a wider view, and may come up with questions of their own. Honestly, I feel that he's missing a huge opportunity to get his point and argument across by refusing to acknowledge anything I've said, or any questions I've asked, but that's up to him. My point is that he hasn't shown anything to make me think that anything he's doing is authentic, historical, or combatively valid. Additionally, his understanding of history seems to be to only look at things that support his particular viewpoint, rather than the wider look he's accusing others of not taking (anyone who agrees with the commonly held view of the suppression of Korean martial arts aren't reading the right books, for instance...). So I'll probably continue to question what he posts... mainly so others can see the issues in his comments.

EDIT: For example, we could look at Bruce's above answer to the simple question of "what are the 12 cuts?" He went on earlier about there being "12 cuts, no more, no less", and tried to make it sound as if that was universal to all swordsmanship. I have pointed out that it sounds like he's just talking about cutting angles, and here, after some rather odd play about the "nature of numbers in Korean speach", he basically says that they are the angles, similar to a clock face... okay, but that does contradict a couple of his earlier statements about the concrete number of cuts, the idea that he'd already stated this, and so on.

 

All of which is much more diplomatically phrased than "you're completely wrong."

 

Yes, it is. And, hopefully, I've managed to back up whenever I've made a call on what Bruce has said (if not, just let me know, and I will). My observations of his clip are my observations, and, as I said there, I was interested to know if anyone else saw the same things, or disagreed with me... so far, no one else has commented. And that's a big part of why I'm continuing... Bear has made a few comments, but overall, no-one seems to be calling Bruce on the discrepancies in his comments, or the issues we see. So I figure, I like words, might as well use 'em...

 

Thanks!

Ok I see about the clock face. Personally the angles differentiation is not a "different cut" but we study different arts so thats cool. I'd go for the basic 9.

The numerology thing is apparently rife then in all eastern arts then. 3, 5, 7, 9, 8, 81 etc....

Also some interesting occurances (though probably unintentional) of phi.

With the turn-and cut: is there a reason that is counted as a different cut? Or just to meet some significant number?

Same with the alternate cuts.

And it ok if it is as I'm sure some technique lists in old arts are "padded" to meet significant numbers.

 

The way they read to me (the alternating cuts, the turning cut etc) was that they were movement drills, along the lines of kihon, rather than distinct, or separate cuts themselves. More a way to train the cuts, as it were.

 

Well "cultural genocide"it may sound like it makes sense, but it would probably be more accurate to say something like "attempted ethnic cleansing". But even that would not be entirely accurate as a significant portion of the Korean Society aided and abetted the Japanese takeover. Another one of those nasty little secret noone wants to talk about. Ever hear of the "Comfort Women"? I'm talking about the Korean women who were recruited to provide company ---of various kinds--- to the Japanese and Korean soldiers. Did you know that the single most successful recruiter for Comfort Women was, a Korean woman?

Likewise, nobody talks about the Military Training Centers in Habin and Mukden in Manchuria where Koreans went to be trained as officers for the Japanese Army. CHOI Hong Hi, of TKD fame, was a graduate of one such school.

Did you know that the last king of the Choson Dynasty had no less than Four Major and Five Minor factions or Cliques vying for control of Korean Foreign Policy? The major ones included the Conservative TONGHAK, the Pro-Russian, the Pro-Western (America, France, GB and Germany), the Pro-Chinese AND the Pro-Japanese. During WW II there were 22,000 Koreans working under the Japanese just in the Korean Police alone. Want to know how many admit to it today? Just about the same number of people you will find in Nurenburg who had a family member at the NAZI Rallies of Pre-WWII.

But, why stop there. Take a read sometime on Syngman Rhee and find out how sanitized HIS history is. Or, try reading up on the MIlitary dictatorships that followed Rhee.

I've taught History for a while so I have some small skills at how to sort out the wheat from the chaff, as it were. Korean History has a LOT more chaff than anything else. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

The issue of the roll played by the turn is to begin to "creep-up on" the "Straight Ascending Cut", which, as the name suggests, is 180 degrees ("6 to 12" on the clockface) from the Straight Descending Cut ("12 to 6"). Its not plausible to stand in front of an opponent and stick your sword blade between his knees and snap it straight up, blade-edge first. Instead this particular cut becomes part and parcel of a rather complex turn/ground/cut method. Once again its part of that "360 degree" or "universal" awareness I wrote of a while back. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Bruce, I'm not entirely sure you understand what is meant by "cultural genocide", or even "ethnic cleansing" (for the record, that would imply killing the population, or the ethnic group, whereas cultural genocide is the destruction of a culture, which might include the killing of the genetic population as well), or how it's done. For instance, you cite compliance from Koreans, and seem to think that that's an indication of it not taking place... I gotta tell you, if you want to do that type of thing successfully, you need people from the cultural/ethnic group to be part of your regime and methods. It doesn't work otherwise. So your references to the leading recruiter for comfort women being Korean herself just shows that that was an efficient and effective method that was being employed, not that it didn't happen... rather the opposite, honestly.

 

Just so I've got a better grasp of where you are coming from with this, do you mind sharing whether you teach history at school or at university?

 

You know how the Koreans would play this, right? Everybody wants to be a Chief; nobody wants to be an Indian, right. For myself, I have my own loyalties and my own hopes for the future. The HDGD people have THEIR hierarchy, as do the Hapkido, Kumdo, and MUYE 24 BAN people. Makes no difference to me as long as they don't start pouring their Kool-aid around me. The way I figure it we can probably come to some accomodation. I'll take a Tennis Court-sized bit of Southern Mississippi, along the Gulf and they can have the rest of the World.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Can you just give a straight answer to a simple question?

 

You are very thorough in outlining your reasoning, yes. That's certainly not at issue.

I would point out, though, that the fact that nobody's commenting doesn't mean nobody has thoughts on the matter. I think we've been around the primrose path a few times on this now. And people have probably drawn their own conclusions by now, whether they've expressed them or no. Silence isn't necessarily an indication that the show must go on.

Just my view.