Discussion in 'Karate' started by mani, Jun 18, 2003.




    76 vote(s)

    81 vote(s)
  1. lma

    lma Valued Member

    Kuma I agree completely Shotokan is no more traditional than Kyokushin. Sorry If I have offended, I didnt mean to . When I read the post the other day im sure some on had put up something Kyokushin is traditional or summit to that effect. I cant see it just now far to many comments to read again lol and I have seen on it on many other blogs and forums that it always for some reason turns into Shotokan vs Kyokushin. Daft because there both good. Shotokan is getting like TKD full of Mcdojo's.

    It is scientific fact that punches have slightly more power than kicks in journals and publishings I read at uni . I think there was even a whole TV program on this kinda thing . I'm not sayin my punch is better than your kick, obvious you may have allot more skill in kicking than me. Its just the leg is 40% heavier than the arm so you need 40% more power correct? No you need more than 66.8%.

    But that goes for nothing as a proper punch with full linkage should result in your whole body mass landing into your opponent. Also there much about dissipation of the force . A punch is on the area of a 5p coin (knuckle) while a kick is a 50p (ball foot more if heel). When punches are more powerfull Its by like a couple of Kg so it doesn't really matter

    Comes down to the what would you rather be hit by a Train or riffle bullet ?

    And yes some them do have the odd little tap to the face but please point me in direction of a full force punch to the face on youtube cause I havent seen one.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2011
  2. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Do you have links or know the titles of these studies?

    As for TV programs, I've seen the exact opposite. When Bas Rutten was on Fight Science, his roundhouse kick was more than twice as powerful as his rear straight. And his rear straight measured at near-concussion levels.

    You also seem to be completely forgetting the fact than in 99% of the population their legs are actually much stronger than their arms. A much stronger delivery system equals a lot more power.

    I remember there was one called Shotokan Art of War, but I can't recall what was all in there. On a work computer right now so can't access Youtube.
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    [ame=""][Fight Science] The Power of one PUNCH or one KICK - YouTube[/ame]
  4. lma

    lma Valued Member

    Any biology paper on body mass will tell you these weights obviously there is some variations in them especially if its some one that has been focusing on building muscle in one part of there body. Then again the body does stop building muscle on one part if the others don't follow.

    The rest is all to do with mass E=1/2Mv squared, but if you want the actual papers on subject they were not on that specificity they were on other things I just found them interesting. I shall see if I can find something on the web though ....

    I seen that you tube vid and it was sport shotokan all reverse punches or half steps with front punch. There was one boy that done full stepping punch to the face but it wasn't proper it was more of a lunge. Not one of them showed focus or kinetic linkage. Without it then yea your right wouldn't tickle you but that's sport. Especially seen as they all mitts on designed to dissipate the energy.

    Im not having a go at kyokushin I think its great and would defiantly join if there was one round here. When we do basic sparring we really try to hit each other (90% of wimp out these days and its only on higher grades.) but when we do freestyle sparring we use a lot more control .
  5. lma

    lma Valued Member

    lol blocked in my country under copyright laws lol . I Google that fight science looks good and I will watch it but I did see allot of reviews on Google saying it was biast and only showed some information.
  6. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    IMO fight science's experiements are usually woefully flawed and all the gadgets and blinking lights can't hide the fact that they appear incapable of conducting a legitimate test within properly controlled conditions.

    It's entertainment first and foremost.
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You could say that and I would agree. IMHO, some of the experiences are great even if flawed, but the conclusions they make from the experiments are incredibly dumbed down.

    They compared punches and just mentioned in passing that body mass would make a difference... well the kung fu guy had the least power punch, of course if you look, he was probably the smallest guy. In addition, the most powerful punch was from a boxer, who was not only bigger, but he was wearing boxing gloves with hands wrapped (adding mass and structure to the punch). They made note that the kung fu punch was enough to break bones, but since they were measuring knockout effect on the brain they weren't looking at breaking bones but at how much shock is applied to the brain for a knock out.

    When they compare the power of kicks, it turns out the knee is by far the most powerful based on compression. The hands are used to bring the target into the knee. We all know that kind of knee can mess someone up.

    The reason I think this experiment is great because of all the information that is said in passing basically defining what actually is being measured. Not the dumbed down conclusions, but the explanations of the data and how the mechanics work.
  8. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I think that they are pretty entertaining for sure, but it aint really science.

    Can't view the embedded link as in the UK (and footage is blocked) so can't comment on that particular one. I've seen some really poorly concieved and poorly conducted tests in the past though. Still, fun to see Bas Rutten smashing synthetic organs etc! :hat:
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Ah, that's right. Well, basically, with all the flawed "science", basically what it came down to was the effect on the target.

    You can't just measure the raw force of something and say that is better. They try to measure what that force would do to the target. I think that is pretty cool since we all have been hit or kicked in training, real life, or where ever and got the wind knocked out of us, stunned, or maybe even knocked out... so really the tests of the effect on the target is a good one. IMHO.
  10. Fuyugoshi

    Fuyugoshi Valued Member

    By the name "traditional", people refer to karate as practiced in XX century in main-island Japan, under the JKF. Usually, schools of this karate use the word "do" as part of their names. So, shotokan, wado ryu, ****o ryu and many others belong to this class of karate (karate do). I do not know whether kyokushin is considered "traditional" or not, but I do know it certainly is closer to traditional karate than you think. Before karate do (or "traditional" karate), there was no karate, only toudi (or tote, "Chinese hand") in Okinawa. Those martial arts, self defense oriented, is what historians call "classical karate". So, same as judo comes from jujitsu, and kendo from kenjutsu, karate do comes from toudi. "Traditional martial arts" are called "traditional" not because they are traditional, but because they want to preserve arts that are no longer required in modern world.

    So traditional is not really old and it certainly is not that traditional... kyokushin, as a spring both of shotokan and "traditional" goju ryu, has a sport oriented focus. Of course, it also is an attempt to make martial arts practice closer to what it used to be, but it still is a sport. Any martial art known by their tournaments is sport oriented, and their training becomes a tool to compete successfully under predefined rules that define victory. By the way, this sport oriented characteristic of kyokushin, shotokan, daidojuku, etc is what defines our modern world. That and show bizz (TV, coliseum and money involved in them, as can be seen in some MMA tournaments).

    Different times, different practices.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  11. lma

    lma Valued Member

    Yea I understand what you mean you just put it in a better context than me !

    Have you got any further reading on this sounds interesting?
  12. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    At least the kyokshinkai guys fight under a set of rules that allows for a valid comparison. Where there is no physical contact, there is no basis for comparison. Points become theoretical rather than based on actual impact.
    Also, the idea that 'sport' is somehow inferior to other types of training is bunk.
  13. Fuyugoshi

    Fuyugoshi Valued Member

    Harry Cook┬┤ Shotokan Karate: A Precise History
    Morio Higaonna┬┤s The History of Karate: Goju Ryu
    articles in fightingarts (online)
    And some others...

    "valid comparison" is a relative term. It depends of what it is to be compared and what criteria you use for comparison. For example, it is true what you say about theoretical points. They are "theoretical" compared to "actual impact" in kyokushin; however, if you compared kyokushin set of rules with the total absence of rules in a deadly fight, then we had some problems. Classical karate is full of breaking and tearing techniques that you will never see in a kyokushin sport fight. That being said, I met kyokushin guys (and a few shotokan guys also) who also train for self defense and know how to break and tear apart stuff.

    Ah, I forgot to mention: I never said that "martial arts sport training is inferior to other types of training". I think it can not be inferred from my post in any way. You added that idea, maybe because you thought you were debating with someone else.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  14. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Fair enough. It's just that that's what most people seem to think when they differentiate between sport and other types of training.

Share This Page