Discussion in 'Karate' started by mani, Jun 18, 2003.




    76 vote(s)

    81 vote(s)
  1. Tommy_P

    Tommy_P New Member

    I was refering to what I thought was a debate about this somewhere earlier in this thread......I may heve been mistaken.

    Kyokushin sparring is full contact agreed, but not in the same sense that all the new fangled full contact "sports katate" that have popped up. Kyokushin is just doing what traditional karate is supposed to do.
    I personally wouldn't call kyokushin full contact, I call it real karate. Their sparring is full contact but the teaching is traditional, although I have to say that their sparring is still geared towards competition (which is what I see as it's weakness). I think the original question was catorgorizing full contact as something different than any traditional kate/kumite teaching systems........which Kyokushin falls into.
    My main system is Shotokan but I trained a few years in Kyokushin. I found them both very similar as far as how classes were run. Less kata in Kyokushin, more emphasis on sparring, more conditioning, more technique reps etc. But basiclly the same (with the obvious style and philosophy differences).
    My Shotokan training was pretty close in brutality in training in some areas and luckily IMO sparring was hard and long, although unfortunately eventually with safety equipment. I don't do points at all and refuse to teach it.

    Yea well, I think there is some confusion throughout the thread about what traditional and or full contact is. In the 70's I belonged to a damn kung fu school for a short time that sparred full contact and back then Joon Rhee's safety equipment wasn't even a dream yet as far as I know.

  2. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    How do you punch to the face without safety equipement?
  3. Furikuchan

    Furikuchan New Member

    *rubs her temples* Haven't we been over this argument before? Okay, fine, I'll post my opinion (which, admittedly, isn't worth much.)
    "Traditional" karate is actually a mixture of katas and applications. Bunkai bunkai BUNKAI. That's the thing that too many people don't see when they think of traditional karate. They point at moves in katas and go "That wouldn't work in a real fight." Of course it wouldn't work in a real fight. That's because we're not doing what you think we're doing! The point of kata is to teach body dynamics that can be used in fighting applications. Even if you get in a real fight, are you going to start doing Pinan Shodan? Even the bunkai to Pinan Shodan? No. But if you've done the kata enough, no matter what you do, you will have the body dynamics to get power behind it. My point: Traditional is not just kata.
    "Full Contact" karate isn't what it seems, either. There is a lot of perfectly good technique found in sparring and applications. Too many people look at those schools and go "That might get you a point in a tournament, but wouldn't win a real fight." They don't just teach you all the strikes of karate, hand you pads, and tell you to go fight. It's also not just sparring practice. The senseis will still take the time to go over specific applications. From this kind of method, you would be more likely to do exactly what you did in class on the street, because you go over specific defenses that really work. My point: Full Contact is not just masochistic guys beating up on each other.
    Both ways of looking at karate are perfectly valid. Personally, I was raised in a traditional karate school. I wouldn't switch over to a full contact school because I like doing kata. I learn more from doing kata than I do whaling on a punching bag or twisting my buddy's arm. A friend of mine is exactly the opposite. He has learned his style from years of working with people. He likes full contact because he learns from working against an unpredictable opponent. I'd rather not be on the receiving end of one of his kicks, so I think his training is going along fine, too.
  4. Tommy_P

    Tommy_P New Member

    These days you don't (can't) due to all the commercialism and insurance requirements etc, but when I was a growing up it was called touch or light contact to the face (I'm sure you can imagine how that worked out). At times, usually it was a choice, you would use those small canvas knuckle covering pieces of crap. Busted noses, blood stained gi, lost teeth. When I trained in Kyokushin it was run by Kanamura, a student of Oyama. The guy had no damn teeth. When I first trained there, although the bulk of the class was extreme, I was used to it from my Shotokan. When it came to kumite I had a rude awakining!! The only thing that threw them off was my sweeps but other than that I had my work cut out for me. It was an eye opening, training changing experience.
    Nowadays you need friggin hockey masks to go barefist.

    I've seen more recent Kyokushin training that allows those mixed ma type gloves and some that allow bag gloves or a light canvas type of thing.
    I don't think that's a bad idea "sometimes". As you mentioned above, it can be considered a weakness of Kyokushin. Personally I think it won't hold you back in the street enough to matter.

    Just to be clear "Im not" Kyokushin. Although I trained in it for 2 years it was a supplement to my Shotokan training. I was friendly with that particular NY org. through my instructor. I went through all the training and kumite but wasn't there to gain rank. I didn't compete and I learned their kata at random, some intermediate and a couple of advanced. Me and the instructor would also have our own little marathon training and kumite sessions.
    If you wish to be a member you have to strip off your black belt and begin at green, at least with that particular Kyokushinkai.

    But we're (I'm ) way off the track of this thread ain't we!!

    Last edited: Apr 10, 2004
  5. dori_kin_86

    dori_kin_86 Hu Flung Pu

    I forgot to include this, as the practictioners get more advanced, the lines between street and ring disappear. I have read of full contact people devastating people on the street, and traditional people duing well in the arena.

    Don't think we don't spar, we just don't do it as often and it is not our main focus in our training, and I thank the person that mentioned bunkai. In bunkai, we practice the self defence we get from our kata.

    And sorry if I slapped anyone in the face. Forget about the last paragraph.
    If you still don't like what I said then this and other post from me, they are coming from a 14yr old beginner, my opinions will probably change in two years.

    I know enough about traditional karate to know what I'm talking about, but not full contact, only stories and articles I've read, please send info

    I thank my uncle Taruc for pointing this out, this should not even be an argument in our true opinion, its whatever works for you. If you go back to Okinawa in the feudal era, no one was worried about whos style was better, just as long as it worked, it was fine.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2004
  6. Flying Shadow

    Flying Shadow New Member


    Probably. Though kickboxing's hand techniques have been more inspired by western boxing rather than the karate hand techniques (correct me if I'm wrong) and as far as stances go it's the same deal.

    I tend to agree with the philosophy of kickboxing (people need to train under heavy contact in order to be prepared to with heavy contact on the streets) that's it's strength however traditional "traditional" karate I would imagine to be more heavier contact.

    So it depends by what you mean by "traditional" karate.
  7. AAAhmed46

    AAAhmed46 Valued Member

    I dont understand this forum. Traditional karate, IS full contact.
  8. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    Well there is "traditional" like it was probably trained a long time ago (with lots of contact etc), and now you have modern "traditional" karate where most people spend all their time on kata and light or no contact point sparring. :rolleyes:

    Yes kickboxing started from karate, but with an emphasis on building skill fast so you can compete. It got influenced by other things (boxing, savate, muay thai etc) so now there isn't just one style of kickboxing. Basically everyone teaches it different.

    Someone could say they are teaching 'kickboxing' but really be teaching anything.
  9. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    My thoughts exactly
  10. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    heh yeah I was about to say..... traditionally, karateka were quite big on full contact, its only for the soft western market that want to learn t3h deadly asian MA but dont want to get hit that they have become what they are today. I would class kyokushin as the most traditional MA- katas etc, but also full contact bare knuckle fighting.
  11. kevamania

    kevamania Valued Member

    I think the popularity of competitions has brought on the whole contact confusion.
  12. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    You think that fair and open competition is a BAD thing? '~' Why?
  13. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    Competition isn't a bad thing---It's actually a GREAT thing. It's when people do light or no contact point sparring that it becomes a bad thing. Continuous, heavy contact sparring is a great way to improve. One good thing about open competitions is that you compete against people outside of your style/dojo/dojang/kwoon//gym/etc. If you train in Style A against fighters from Style A all the time, you will likely be really confused when you fight someone from Style B who fights in a completely different way. Competing is good (and fun!), but you have to have some element of realism. Face it, point sparring and light/no contact sparring aren't anything like the street. At least in heavy contact continous sparring, you have to keep your guard up to keep from getting hit. :D

    Once I get better at MMA, I'm going to start competing at open tournaments again. Hopefully I can find some that allow sanshou (striking with takedowns), since I'm a grappler. If I have to do point sparring with no takedowns, I'll be a fish out of water. :cry:
  14. AAAhmed46

    AAAhmed46 Valued Member

    I still do NOT understand the point of this thread. Many traditional teachers ARE full contact, some even have take downs.
  15. kevamania

    kevamania Valued Member

    No,not at all.Its just that people may see a white belt point sparring division in a karate competition with no head contact and light body contact,not knowing that these are in place for the beginner who may not have much control and think that ALL karate is little contact.

    I actually love point sparring,when you win it is purely because of skill and speed.Its all explosive.
    I started a thread in the freestyle/sporting martial arts forum"points fighter in a continuos fight",its something along the lines of this.Check it out,Itd be great to hear from Karatekas and people who have fought in both situations.

    Did point fighting come about after"full contact karate"/kickboxing as an alternative for those who want to compete under continuos rules?
  16. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Full contact!!! :eek:
  17. mr_vodka

    mr_vodka New Member


    Now, with my vote, full contact takes over :)
  18. berador

    berador New Member


    As said by many others, the thread-name is self-contradicting. Neo-traditional Karate was evolved to keep students from getting hurt, and to help create great Kata-shows (been to many, it DOES look good). REAL traditional Karate was/is Full-Contact, so i personally don't wan't to vote on this one (it is impossible to do so for me, since i don't agree on distincting the two things).

    My point, with all this, would be; Please tell (when makin' polls like this) wether you're refering to old-school traditional Karate, or to Neo-traditional Karate.
  19. Getalifebud

    Getalifebud Valued Member

    I voted Traditional, as If taught well, you will have a better chance of gaining some automatic self defence reactions.
  20. mr_vodka

    mr_vodka New Member

    Of course I can be terribly wrong and correct me if I am but...

    Both traditional and full contact (traditional can be full contact too you know) can equally well build up automatic self defence reflexes. Furthermore, I think that full contact sparring combined with countless repetitions of techniques can build up really good reflexes.

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