Hi Mitlov, Gary, My understanding was that Karate has never been viewed as a traditional or proper martial art in Japanese society as a whole (by contrast with some of the Ju-Jitsu, sword, staff and bow systems). My reading has been so diverse over the years that I can't think of right now who to pin this on - possibly Rob Redmond. The type of social character it has attracted (or at least did attract) tended (broadly) to be lower social class university students and Yakuza, which also meant that it was genrally looked down upon in polite society. I would not class JKA evolution per se as evolution in a martial art. I would view JKA Karate as a sport (like Athletics) with a martial arts heritage. The changes wrought have been linked to performance aesthetics and sport science. Reference Judo, Aikido and to an extent Karate-Do - they are successful exceptions to the norm. Perhaps that is why they are successful. The move away from Jutsu to Do and Sport came at a particular point in the history of Japan where change was being forced form both within and without. They are products of a fairly unique geo-political set of circumstances. Koyo I'm sure could lend a more educated view on the Aiki question. But my impression from those Aikidoka I studied with has always been that Aiki has tended to follow a rigorous tradition. Each tradition stems more (in general) from where Ueshiba was in his own training development when he taught the founder of that group than subsequent development. Although each practitioner is encouraged to make something their own, individuality is always limited in Japanese styles because of the need for conformity and group identity. Shu-ha -ri in the context of most Japanese arts represent individual development. But the culture ensures that in the main whatever the individual's development, conformity limits change. One might say that the individual is encouraged to develop their own approach, but not to teach it. The more western culture has permeated the minds of Japanese martial artists, the more split styles I would expect to see. Going back to the social groups that 'apparently' have made up the majority of Japanese Karate, it may be that these were the most vulnerable to western influence and change. Certainly the rate of style division post WWII has increased steadily - but more so in Karate than any other group? Anyway - I ramble, it's late, and I'm out all weekend. JT
This is a good point But then again, and I could be wrong, has Karate ever really been intended to be traditional? Given that the art is under/around 100 years old, all the old masters trained in the okinawan te arts, then made karate out of what was there, and then the ones that trained under those old masters changed the art to what they believed needed to be changed in their time and became newer old masters So therefor is not the nature of Karate infact to change with the times? Surely some old masters thought that personal/moral character needed to be perfected, some seem to think that they would be fighting ruffians (Well in the instruction books of the early karate days lol) and others thought that changing it and using it in schools was what the society/times needed. Then we had the karate/ninjutsu etc boom in the 80s with the karate kid movies and so on, and maybe our western culture so much wanted everything to be mysterious and traditional that we put that aspect to this art unknowingly? I think that if the masters that founded the original karate schools were alive today, im sure they would have modified, or ended up explaining alot of the reasons for the long stances and punches in full and perhaps even moving and adapting with the times, as most great fighters like to do. Perhaps the original Okinawan ground fighting would be brought back in since everyone is into bjj and ground fighting now. As most of us karateka do, we get interested in the culture of our art, but as I think someone else mentioned in this post, or others on this forum, the Okinawans have a totally different approach to teaching etc then the Japanese Im sorry if my view on this is a bit off, Im sure someone will be able to correct me if im wrong Thank you
You are of course referring to the absolute epidemic of crowbar murders adjacent to cars in parking lots?
Most surely, and the many times a hippy would be holding a gun to your head, and when you would be attacked while sitting in your car, or on your harmless way to work in a suit being attacked by two obliging and patient evil doers, must have been bad times
Hi John, My understanding of Shuhari is that by travelling through the relevant stages of it, the Karateka will eventually make the style his own. That’s different from making a new style altogether, and the key imo is understanding and keeping the basic fundamentals of the style intact. With the Shuhari of the individual, the style will continue to develop. Ohtsuka seemed to leave certain aspects "loose" within wado, and I believe this was deliberate as he intended them to be areas within which the karateka could exercise their personal understanding of the art - using the fundamentals that he had been taught. Perhaps not too dissimilar to Aikido, Ohtsuka is famed for his comments about Wado not being complete/finished and he was forever tweaking it during his long life. The small differences are visible across different groups (depending on the particular stage that the instructor received his training from him), but the fundamentals remain constant, and more importantly the way they are taught / transmitted remain constant - this is the tradition that I am referring to. That’s my take on it anyway Gary
hi gary, its also may be of intereset to note some developments in shotokan towards relaxation and more relaxed natural movement as u asked jwt about jka shotokan. the jks shotokan formed by asai sensei one of the top men in jka and the cause of the split into jka/jks fractions of the original jka was due to his inovations he called holding kime and stiff movment constipated karate and said that holding tension after technique was a puesdo science. he constantly stressed softness and to snap and immmediately relax techinques.as u pointed out this does not mean bad form. as a result of his innovations all the shoto men that followed his methods and trained in jks headquarters all has relaxed natural shotokan kagawa sense and yamaguchi sensei are two that come to mind and are teaching this method of relaxed movement. also a point since the deep stances were talked about,a lot of the time the stances used by this men are of an upright less rigid nature: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieLvH76fXPY&feature=related this is just my 2 cent worth and thought it might be of interest to u being a wado man and with its emphasis on relaxed movement.
For what it's worth, at a JKA dojo, I get chided to "relax more" essentially every practice. As for holding kime, maybe that's been mentioned once at a workshop. I honestly can't remember a single concrete time when I was told to do that more. As for stances, JKA versus JKS, the instructors I've had would not have told that guy in the JKS video to get into a lower stance. They probably would have told him to shorten his stance while keeping the same overall height. Like all my posts, this is just one person's experience at two dojos that are part of the same organization. Can't speak for the JKA as a whole.
hi mitlov, thats great,no conflict there.i apologize if my text can across as jks vs jka,that wasnt my intention.i was mainly talking about old school shotokan before the jks even existed. the shotokan of old was not as relaxed as it is practised now in a lot of groups.this is without doubt a positive thing,but a lot of shotokan is still practised with far to much unnessecary tension. asai sensei used to say that there was no need to tense at the end of a technique at all,and thats not what kime really meant. i think he was refereing the same approach wado utilises in its techniques. maybe gary has his view on this?
Thanks for posting that fred. Can I ask, are you a JKS man? Also I hope John can chime in here as I remember a post he made a few month ago about the "original" way to do Shotokan vs. perhaps what is being done today. @ Mitlov, forgive me if seems that I am referring to stereotypes, I apologies as secretly, I think that the JKA are the only group that have got it right if I am being honest. If consistancy be the key Gary
hi gary, i was jka and jks for a period,mainly focusing on aikido now. i also trained under a wado academy 7th dan japanese sensei for a while not long enoughthough i may add but it did give me a glimpse into the world of wado.
No need to apologize! This discussion is so courteous and informed it has me wondering if I'm even on the internet at all right now I think you're onto something with the "holding kime" thing being an old-school JKA thing. The one time I remember having a discussion along those lines was at a workshop with a higher-ranking but older-school guy who taught a lot of mechanics differently than what my day-to-day instructors have taught. As for differences between JKA and JKS doctrine, we are taught that you go rigid (for lack of a better term) for a moment at the impact of a strike, but it's only a momentary thing, and at all other times, you should be loose and relaxed. That instantaneous tensing at the moment of impact sounds like it's different from what the JKS teaches? I was thinking about it, and my first Shotokan instructor used to use a term, "keeping _______," and I can't remember for the life of me whether it was kime, kamae, or something else (I was always terrible at remembering Japanese terminology). The idea was that, after using a technique in a kumite drill (either one-step or some sort of pre-arranged sparring drill), instead of holding it at the point of impact, you would recover immediately after impact and be ready (physically and mentally) to continue to press the attack. You wouldn't actually launch the next attack, but you'd be poised to do so until the instructor said "yame." I think the instructor's phrase for this idea was "keeping kime," but my memory on that point is more than a little fuzzy.
Ahh, an academy man. I have had the priv of training with Shiomitsu sensei and on a few occasions and yes - he makes you realise that we (everyone else) move awkwardly, whilst he (annoyingly) moves like silk, effortlessly and yet delivers - git.
Like I said to Fred123, absolutely nothing in this thread is deserving of an apology. This has got to be one of the most informed, interesting discussions I've seen on the internet in a long time. I'm just trying to contribute where I can, keeping in mind that I've got a lot less experience and knowledge than a lot of other people contributing to this thread (yourself included).
hi gary, i was acually refering to iwasaki sensei in ireland. i understand your assuption though,how many wado academy japanese 7th dans are there living on our shores! a fine wado man also,his percission is scary!
The Same Iwasaki sensei that is featured in the photo bottom right of Tyrone Pardue's web site. www.americanwadoacademy.com/id1.html All good Wado. Re holding Kime I will respond to your question fred, but right now have to go to work booo! Gary
Hi Fred, Mitlov, Kime in its literal translation is of course a compound of two words ki = spirit and me = eye, so in essence it is the focus point of the techniques spirit / skill / energy. In most karate styles, during kihon we are taught to remain relaxed whilst moving through the technique, but where the technique would "theoretically" penetrate your opponent, we are told to have a period of tension at the point of impact as if to brace the body. This action is usually referred to as "kime", and it is my understanding that the length of time the strength is "held" can vary from style to style. In his book "Introduction to Karate" Shingo Ohgami attempts to demonstrate this by means of a graph. On the”x” axis he shows the varying length of "tension / strength" that different styles "typically" apply, whilst the “y” axis shows the amount of power delivered. In this he suggests that a rapid short burst of tension creates more power albeit briefly, vs. a more sustained delivery of power – a focused peak of energy rather than a flat plank as it were. Now, to save myself from another ear bending from Mitlov , I think his (Ohgami sensei) view is a little insular, if only to serve a point, and I don’t believe the relaxed approached is unique to any one style or at least its exponents, but perhaps we are being taught the “holding Kime” route, because it is somewhat easier to explain… I have had the privilege of training with some Wado karate giants, and they all have the same thing in common, whilst they are "sharp as", they don't necessarily appear to have kime as a stand alone at the end of the technique, the “snap” of tension that we refer to as Kime, or if they do, it is indistinguishable from the rest of the movement outside of acceleration of technique towards its end (not unlike a swords-mans cut). But this is where it becomes difficult to relay to students perhaps. The likes of Arakawa, Shiomitsu, Ohgami and Iwasaki etc., don’t lack kime or strength, they have trained them selves to be strong whilst still remaining totally relaxed – if that makes sense. When you can master this, you can have fluidity of movement and power perhaps? Ahh, why is this so flippin hard!!! Gary
hi Gary, Havent been appy to reply as quick as i would have liked,my internet is down..nooooo!!! yes,the subject of kime is an interesting one all right.it is interesting the different aproach from school to school how much tension,if any should be held. asai sensei is qouted as saying he looked to oghami's appoach to develop relaxed technique inside his JKA/shotokan structure or framework snap relax move,snap relax move was a common phrase of his. if i try to break a piece of wood in half and tense at the moment of impact the chances are it wont break,but if u have a relaxed techinque backed by speed you would have a better chance of breaking it. i suppose one could argue that the point at which one tenses is after youve smashed through the board. i dont know,all i know is the approach of contracting the body has produced a lot of over tensing, excess effort and slowness in the karate world. look at mike tyson,his explosive punching had not one bit of excess tension. i suppose if we looking for economical movement in kihon etc and all that that entails we are on the right track. just on the point u metioned about one point of this tread was about training in low stances and how that translates into more freestyle fighting for me traing in low stances has its benefts through having a strong connection to the ground during basics,I feel gives one the ability to utilize the ground well from a higher stance,and thus generate power. hard to put into words,it can be felt in the body much easier
