Tradition and Pedagogy within Karate

Hi Mitlov, yes very good post.

Nishiyama Karate is a great example of "shu-ha-ri" within Shotokan perhaps.

As a non Shotokany I can not speak from a position of great knowledge, but wouldn't it be true to say that Funakoshi's Shotokan took a radical shift in direction, at the hands of Nakayama Masatoshi both in the way it was performed and perhaps the approach to training.

Would one such group be Harada sensei's Shotokai?

Gary

 

I was thinking of Shotokan Karate of America (SKA Shotokan) when I wrote the post, but yes, I think that's correct. I'm not even sure if SKA Shotokan and Shotokai are the same thing or not. I've always trained at JKA dojos, so I don't have a lot of experience in the other sub-varieties of Shotokan.

 

My lot aren't that traditional, or at least they weren't last time I was there, and to be honest, that's the way I liked it. I know traditional is good for you, but you can have too much of it, and anyway I disagree with the whole 'narrow but deep' ethos in karate. I think it's a good idea to have a rounded, varied, constantly changing game.

 

There is a huge difference between Shotokan and Shotokai. Shotokai is not a sub-variety of Shotokan, it is a completely different style - as much so as ****o or Wado.

If we're talking about tradition - guess which group wasn't invited to Funakoshi's funeral?

 

If we were just talking JKA Shotokan and the Shotokai, I might agree. Problem is, the term "Shotokan" is also used by Shotokan Karate of America, which is virtually indistinguishable stylistically from Shotokai and is just as far away from JKA Shotokan as Shotokai is.

http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/essays/skaskb.html
http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/virtualtour/diferencia.html

And then, to make matters even more complicated, apparently the Shotokai refer to their main dojo as "the Shotokan."

Wasn't the Shotokai in charge of organizing the funeral, and thus in charge of any invitations that were sent out? I hate martial arts politics.

 

Nice links

Well that's only natural given the meanings of the two phrases.

I'm too lazy to go and look that up right now, but if they were in charge of the funeral arrangements, you could argue a case for that indicating something.

They are the bane of martial arts, but a natural consequence when differences in points of view lead to competition over money and power. Some of the insults I've heard traded within the Shotokan community in the UK are pretty obscene. :lowblow:

 

To me, that doesn't indicate anything more than what we already know about the Shotokai and the JKA: the Shotokai treats Funakoshi's teachings as the final word on the art, whereas the JKA treats him a historical founder and important teacher but not the be-all-end-all of the art. Funakoshi (or more precisely, his family when he died) clearly appreciated the former approach more than the latter.

 

John,

I think you have mentioned in previous thread about how shotokan used to be done with more upright stances and fluidity of movement.

Do you think this is missing from JKA shotokan.

Mitlov,

What are your thoughts here.

 

I had no idea until you asked, so I looked up some old videos of Funakoshi to see if it's significantly different than what we do, and I'm not sure I'd agree that it's significantly taller and more fluid than the modern JKA practice. Maybe I'm just not looking at the right videos?

Funakoshi doing Empi:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjGZLa50Z_w"]YouTube - Empi Kata - Funakoshi Gichen 1924[/ame]

JKA bigwig doing Empi:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJfPeKAcDjo"]YouTube - JKA Kata Empi[/ame]

Funakoshi doing Tekki Shodan:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrslr9LWIw"]YouTube - Gichin Funakoshi Tekki Shodan[/ame]

JKA bigwig doing Tekki Shodan:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvcj1ZWqrsU"]YouTube - JKA Kata Tekki Shodan[/ame]

 

Hi Mark,

Can I ask why you think it is you assume a more natural stance for kumite vs. the lower stances you do elsewhere?... Kata?

 

I think it's easier to isolate and work on body mechanics such as proper spine alignment, powering each movement with the hips, etc with a lower stance. Once you know the principles inside and out, it's easy to apply them to other ways of moving. Of course, this is not the only way to learn body mechanics, but I think it's one legitimate way and a way I personally find useful.

Plus, I don't find Shotokan stances THAT low. They may be lower than a boxing stance or some other karate stances, but they're no lower than a fencing stance, and higher than a wrestling stance. I'm not sure I'd want an appreciably higher or narrower stance for a real-world altercation than I use in Shotokan practice. That said, some pictures I see online are more exaggerated (a bit lower and a whole lot longer and wider) than what the dojos I have trained at encourage.

 

Train hard fight easy kinda thing?

 

Mitlov - I don't think that's Gichin Funakoshi in either video. In fact I am 100% certain it's not him. The stances look nothing like the pictures I have of him doing those Kata in Karate Do Kyohan (or Karate Jutsu for that matter), nor like the pictures (not of him) in the later 50s edition of the text. It's very odd that the face is deliberately obscured in both videos. It might be rare footage of Gigo - who was known for taking Karate in the direction of lower stances, but the deliberate obstruction of the face suggests otherwise.

Reference the Shotokan thing. I think it was less that Funakoshi disapproved of development, after all - that's what he and his teachers had done, and what he had encouraged Egami to do. I think it is more the disapproval of the sporting direction that the JKA was taking.

Gary, I think there is a degree of fluidity missing in modern JKA Shotokan, but I feel this is less to do with the deep stances and more to do with the type of kime used and the focus on 'one strike one kill' that jars with the intent (to my interpretation) of the majority of the Kata's movements. There is a distinct difference between the fighting system the movements of the Kata suggest and the core fighting techniques of Shotokan (of any association) kumite.

I don't feel that low postures necessarily mean slow postures. The more you train, the more a natural movement is used and the quicker and easier the transition between postures becomes. As you improve you can achieve a greater effect than before with a smaller less obvious movement in a higher stance. But, I have found that at close range against a resisting opponent attacking in an alive fashion (and attacking like a 'ruffian' as Itosu suggested in his letter promoting Karate) low stances tend to be more appropriate. But then so is a slanted spine (in line with the rear shin) and relaxed (ie untucked) pelvis.

 

Now now John, is that what you writers call plagiarism?

But you can have this one on me

Gary

 

Did you post that today? Every time I've tried to get on that thread today I've given up due to the time delay.

The whole 'one strike, one kill' has its origins in the Japanisation of Karate in my opinion. Itosu, who was Japanophile, favoured it because it suited his form of Karate (body-building and PE). Azato may have also have favoured it as he was a keen swordsman. Funakoshi seems to have followed in their footsteps. We know little of Matsumura's preferred style other than he disliked Itosu's emphasis on strength and heavy strikes. All the surviving stories that I know of indicate that he was a keen practitioner of psychological warfare.

Whatever the case, it is this emphasis that has predominated in the Oi Zuki, Gyaku Zuki and Mae Geri of kumite rather than the Uke technique orientated Kata.

 

Well “Grounded” stances.

First of all, we (Shuri) train in low stances, typically lower than most Okinawan styles. Does that mean I fight in low stances all the time? No… Can I? Yes.

Generally speaking, the better the leverage the stronger the technique. Regardless of the depth of the stance, it needs to be well grounded. Look at the principle of “grounding” in electricity. If you have a loose ground there is interference and the current does not flow effectively and efficiently. At its most basic level, a punch (or kick) is nothing more than a transfer of energy. Low strong stances generally mean better leverage and more power… all things being equal the “bigger” punch wins…

(unless it’s not first… the flip side of the Power –vs- Speed argument.

My $.02

 

Hi Anari,

The word "grounded" always feels wrong to me.

I understand what you mean (I think), but when I train, I try to avoid being grounded, as it seems to imply being "stuck".

Fluidity of movement is key (or at least it is in my style).

This why I posted this thread originaly as it is interesting to try to understand how styles that promote a low stance in their kihon / kata develope this into apractical way to move in kumite.

Gary

 

Good point....

Let me clarify (expound).

In Golf... the wrist doesn't break... the balance is perfect... the swing and follow-through are true and correct... making an effortless long straight drive. There is that single point of contact when the relation between the delivered strike and the leverage from the ground is optimal. Even if ever so momentary... it is still has a direct bearing on how far the ball travels.

You are absolutely correct in your argument… However, I do not (nor I recommend that anyone else) stand flat-footed in a solid stance waiting to get hit. We train hard to nail the stance at the moment of impact. Kata teaches us to transition between stances with little wasted movement… use that same idea in kumite. However… make sure you hit that stance hard before you make contact.

This is the difference between getting hit with an arm punch… or getting rocked by a full body punch. My wife (4th dan) weighs all of 110lbs (50 Kgs), she’s faster than me, has great fluidity of movement in her free sparring… she is all over the place… can’t hardly get a hand on her. But OMG when she stops (momentary), nails her stance and leverages that 110lbs behind a solid reverse punch… Holy **** it’s painful… then she’s gone again.

For that instant… that one moment… she is completely “grounded”. Granted, we don’t always train in the deep strong “grounded” stances… but we do at times. It’s nice to know that if you ever need to REALLY deliver that one punch that may get you out of trouble… it’s there.

Kinda like pushing a car (out of gas/petrol)… you get down in a deep forward stance to generate leverage…