Tradional technique vs. tournament technique

Discussion in 'Judo' started by YouKnowWho, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If we compare the traditional technique "front cut (Osoto Gari)" and the tournament (modified) technique "1/2 front cut 1/2 leg block (1/2 Osoto Gari 1/2 Ashi Guruma)", we can see a big difference there.

    1. foot placement (next to your opponent leading foot vs. infront and away from his leading foot),
    2. attacking angle (push your opponent back vs. rotate him sideway),
    3. body angle (your body is vertical vs. your body lean 45 degree forward)
    4. attacking leg (you attack your opponent's front leg vs. you attack his back leg).
    5. leg force (you kick your leg back vs. you sink your foot down).
    6. Your opponent's knee (you don't deal with your opponent's knee vs. you bend his knee sideway).
    7. ...

    It's not hard to see that the traditional technique will only work against beginners. The tournament (modified) technique can be used to against a strong resisted opponent.

    Traditional "front cut (Osoto Gari)":

    http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

    Tournament "1/2 front cut 1/2 leg block (1/2 Osoto Gari 1/2 Ashi Guruma)":

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcA45dsJh2w"]Judo Throw: OSOTO GARI - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is the original Khadaji's article "Classical Osotogari Doesn't Work!":

    http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0822/classical-osotogari-doesnt-work

    Here is the counter article by Steve Cunningham "Classical Osotogari Does Work!":

    http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0823/classical-osotogari-does-work-rebuttal-steve-cunningham

    - Which one's opinion do you agree with, Khadaji or Steve Cunningham?
    - Why the traditional technique is different from the tournament technique?
    - Is there any value to maintain the traditional training method?

    What's your thought?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  2. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Steve sums the whole thing up pretty well I think.

    I can think of a number of throws that you practice in their ideal manner all the time, but in competition you make them work however you can. It doesn't mean the ideal way to do it is wrong - practicing the technique "properly" is what allows you to be able to make variations in it in competition. Judo is at its core an arms race when it comes to technique and strategy and in competition the mindset of "maximum efficiency" is translated as the strategies that will get you a win, not the principles of the throws.

    To the second question, the trad technique is different to the tournament technique because it's obsolete. It still exhibits all the right mechanics and is still practiced that way, but in a tournament setting, everyone knows how to counter it so you have to make changes. Again, arms race.

    Finally the last question I've already kind of answered. The "traditional" techniques contain all the mechanics that one needs to make the throw work. It is the trunk of the tree if you will, with the branches being the variations of it. You have to get that trunk big and solid before you start branching out or you won't have any foundation.
     
  3. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

  4. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Cunningham and Benkei have already answered this but I will add that I agree. Khadaji's understanding of what constitutes a classical o-soto gari is somewhat flawed.

    Here is one of the worlds greatest ever judoka (and o-soto gari experts) showing o-soto gari:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-zFicAVezU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-zFicAVezU[/ame]

    So who's going to tell the worlds greatest o-soto gari proponent that what he is teaching is flawed and doesn't work. What Yamashita shows here is the perfect form. Now from the perfect for a whole load of variations sprout. However, fail to grasp the perfect form and you'll achieve very little.
     
  5. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    i still like Osoto Gari but i guess to get it to work in randori i need to adopt the more competition oriented variation, which looks like an Otoshi/Gari hybrid
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Your throw may always work against beginners. In order to make your throw work against non-beginner, you will need to move yourself to the next level. After you have moved to the next level, should you still use your throw that you have learned in your beginner level training?

    For example, if you apply a "hip thorw", when you spin, your opponent can spin with you and drag you down to the ground. In your middle (or advance) level of training, you have replaced all your body spin by a 90 degree sharp turn. Should you still keep the word "spin" in your dictionary, or should you totally remove that word from your dictionary?

    One of my senior SC brothers believes we should preserve the traditional method so we all know where did we come from. I'm more in favor of to discard the traditional method and replaced with the evolved method.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  7. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Being a Judo noob, there's not much that I can contribute to this other than this great video on osoto gari variations demonstrated by Kaneo Iwatsuri, a personal student of Masahiko Kimura who had a devastating osoto gari.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7QidpQq2As"]Masahiko Kimura's Osoto Gari techniques - YouTube[/ame]
     
  8. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    The thing is, traditional osoto gari isn't useless. It's just as useful as the variations. I use about 3 variations of osoto myself, and the traditional is one of them. If you want to use it successfully in randori/shiai, you have to skip it through very quickly, and turn the large reaping motion into a smaller, faster movement. Never discard an original technique thinking that everyone knows how to counter it - your own speed, strength, technical precision and overall athleticism is more of a factor to your opponent's ability to counter than whether you do a traditional throw or a variation of it.
     
  9. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Another very good osoto gari video:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHAlYRNMt-E"]An in depth overview of Osoto Gari - YouTube[/ame]
     
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Has anybody tries to

    - kick back both of your opponent's legs at the same time? or
    - kick back the outside leg first, and then kick back the inside leg, similiar to leg lift (Uchi Mata), leg block (Ashi Guruma) combo?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  11. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    The "next level" is not a contest variation of the standard form. The next level is improving your ability to know when to launch the attack and to instinctively modify your entry pattern to suit the situation faced. In my opinion to regard judo fundamentals as things you learn as a beginner is flawed. It is these fundamentals that need to be perfected throughout ones judo career. They serve judoka better than a host of tricks. That said the hook and hop and drive type entry is one of the more common entry patterns and is certainly effective.

    I am struggling to picture what you are describing. However, I teach hip throws I certainly do not teach any big spinning action that might lead to tori being dragged down. I try to teach a correct and accurate form from day one and the students polish and perfect it over time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I think that keeping the original method is good for learning. If you train the most evolved form from day one I'm not sure that you will learn all the aspects properly.

    It's almost like learning in a compartmentalised way where you are ignoring the faults on the entry in order to learn about hips and kuzushi- once they are internalized you can learn more dynamic entries.
     
  13. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The only concern that I have on this approach are:

    One may have to

    - remove his old body memory and re-learn the new body memory later on.
    - learn 2 different methods that require twice as much time.

    For example, let's get back to the "body spin" issue. In the following clip, we can see clearly that he tries to "place his right foot on the spot that he wants, move his left foot behind and infront of his opponent's left foot". This will cause a "body spin".

    http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/moroteseoinage.htm

    Instead, if he just keep his body and his opponent in 90 degree angle by putting his right foot between both of his opponent's legs and his left foot behind his own right foot, when he can use his arms to force his opponent's body to bend to the right (his left), he can then move his right foot infront of his opponent's right foot. His left foot may not be exactly infront of his opponent's left foot. But he can add a bit more twisting at the end to adjust that angle. The advantage of the "90 degree turn" is you only commit yourself when you can feel that you can bend your opponent's spine. If you feel strong resistence, you don't have to make that 90 degree turn. You can just step back and nothing has happened. If you use body spin method, the moment that you start to move your left foot, the moment that you have committed. Since you have not affected your opponent's balance before your body spin, your opponent will have good balance to spin with you and drag you down.

    If you try to develop this footwork in your daily life, you can have 3 choices here:

    1. Only do "body spin" footwork.
    2. Only do "90 degree turn" foot work.
    3. Do both.

    Which approach that you like to take may affect your final result many years down the road.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  14. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Hi YouKnowWho

    Are you a judo coach? It is just I am struggling to understand what the issue is with the turn as shown on your link. I am trying to image the entry you are describing in which you bend your opponent over sideways. The image I am getting is very bad and ineffective. However, I wonder if it is just that I am not getting your point (hence my question).

    PS Here is Koga one of the greatest ever Seoi Nage experts turning in as shown in your link. This apporach to training affected his final results many years down the line....he became one of the greatest judoka ever.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F2LjSIPM-Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F2LjSIPM-Y[/ame]

    Please if you have a link to what you are describing send it to me as I'm keen to learn if I am misunderstanding you.
     
  15. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    On this specific issue I disagree. For each throw there are endless variations and entries. If judo was taught by learning a specific "contest" variation to deal with each and every situation, stance and body size, students would take decades to progress.

    Judo is or at least is in most dojo taught in terms of principles. One is taught the basic form and grasps the underlying principles. They then learn to apply these principles through randori, a system of learning through self discovery. Learning judo is not painting by numbers, it is more an original expression of oneself. There is no need to "remove" the fundamental form from body memory.
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I'm a SC (Chinese wrestling) coach since 1980. Since SC and Judo are so similiar and Judo clips are easier to find, sometime I like to borrow Judo clip for discussion.

    In the following clip, you can see that he used his left "under hook" to bend his opponent's body to his left. He then moved his left foot to block his opponent's left foot. Since he has already affected his opponent's body structure, his opponent will have less chance to counter him. When he moved into his opponent, he used a "90 degree turn" and avoided the "body spin".

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUQJgK-8RE"]Chang brother enter - YouTube[/ame]

    Since to spin with my opponent is my "bread and butter", my simple point is, unless you can feel that you can affect your opponent's body balance, otherwise you should never commit any of your body spinning.

    Here is a clip to show the danger of "body spin".

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avM0RpZOecU"]SCd4 - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  17. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    The two above clips of chinese wrestling are both mechanically flawed. The counter on the second clip is a reasonable response to the initial poor attack attack.

    I am not wanting to be disrespectful to chinese wrestling which has some merit. Perhaps the older chap in the first video is to old to properly demonstrate the precise throw he intends. However, the throw he performs is very poor. When he steps in he knocks his partner backwards, the exact opposite to the direction of the throw. This looks more like a poor entry than an attempt to get a reaction. He then pulls his opponent over his leg. The throw relies upon his arms almost entirely. There is no effective use of the hip or leg, both of which are much stronger than the arm. This throw would easily be defended even by low kyu rank judoka. This is the most polite appraisal of the videos I can offer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The old men in that clip was 80 years old at that moment (the clip was taken 20 years ago). He was my teacher's (the old man in my 2nd clip) young brother. The old man had used that same "enetering strategy" in all his life time tournament career and remain a perfect non-defeated record in China.

    May be the risk of "body spin" is not your concern. I like to tell my guys the risk of body spin on day one and not later. That's why I try to remove "spin" out of my own dictionary.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  19. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    "Body spin" is not a concern in the standard judo entry as demonstrated by Koga. As the judoka "spins" / turns in, they should pull and break the opponents balance. Unbalanced the opponent is unable to counter. A failure to break the balance does allow for a counter but this is the same for any throw. Another method involves using an action such as a pull or push before the entry to get a reaction that prevents countering.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  20. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Taking into account all that Bomber has already said (especially regarding the lack of unbalancing), your analogy of the spinning is a bit off. It isn't that the older guy isn't "spinning", he's doing a completely different technique in harai goshi. This technique (if you look at the judo nage no kata) is actually a counter to the opponent stepping out of ogoshi (or as you call it, the "spinning" entry). Harai goshi is no better than ogoshi, they just have different purposes.
     

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