Top Two Reasons To Lift Weights. Plain & Simple.

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Colucci, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. Gary

    Gary Vs The Irresistible Farce Supporter

    Because the focus of the original point wasn't the number, it was the fact that weights are easier to manipulate than bodyweight. It's extremely difficult to increase the resistance of a bodyweight exercise by a set percentage. I haven't seen any advantage that bodyweight offers over free weights yet in this thread.
  2. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    I will absolutely agree that it is easier to measure gains with weights. But that is what you're doing, measuring your ability to weight lift. Not quantify the performance benefits garnered from such exercise.
    If you want to find out the benefits of BW, the best thing to do is find qualified instruction. Learning to effectively use your bodyweight for strength training isn't something you're going to get from me, I have neither the time nor the inclination.
    A good source to start with is Karl Gotch's materials.
    We were talking about performance and what benefits someone the most in their chosen activity, whether it be martial arts, wrestling or grappling, football, whatever. There are experts out there, look them up if you want.

    Look up Vyayam or Gimnastica Natural. Ask guys like Karl Gotch or Rickson Gracie or Gene LaBelle about what you need to be competitor.
    Gene would say "Endurance, Great Technique, & Pain Tolerance".

    Me, I'd rather be like Gene: optimize the package I'm in, with M.A. training, endurance training, calisthenics, gymnastic moves, etc, & let them underestimate me. Not present such a big target that in a real world scenario they're rather shoot me than anything else. That's just is not the smart way to do things. Gene LeBell talks about beginning his Grappling training at 7 years old with Ed "The Strangler" Lewis, about training with some grapplers that weighed up to 300lbs, when he was 160lbs at the most. & he says "Endurance, Technique, & Pain Tolerance are most important to a grappler." & this wasn't modern wrestling, this was Grappling where you could strike, use heel locks, ankle locks, armbars, back locks, neck locks, tweak the nose or choke him out. Damn near anything short of pulling a knife was in.
    The smaller & harder the target is, even if you can manage to hit it, it could just shrug it off, look you in the eye, & say,"Is dat all you got?" That's very disconcerting, especially if he has skills & compact power of his own, because by the time you figure it out, it may be too late.
    I guess the question here is, do you wanna look pretty? or do you wanna be an azzkicker? because sometimes azzkickers are pretty, but even fewer pretty boys kick azz.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  3. Gary

    Gary Vs The Irresistible Farce Supporter

    Cheers for the assumption, but I'm not exactly a n00b at bodyweight exercises. Not only am I trained to competition standard Muay Thai, which in itself included plenty of instruction on bodyweight movements, I am a big fan of trainers like Ross Enemait, and have personally completed most of the routines in his book, Never Gymless.

    When you say I am quantifying my ability to lift weights it's true, but only because I know from experience that this will translate into more applied power on the punch bag. Maximum reps of a movement do not come close to recreating this.

    Finally, size is primarily related to calorie intake, not exercise selection. Look at olympic lifters like Pyrros Dimas, he's only 85 kg but he is terrifyingly strong.

    edit: Since you called me on my experience with bodyweight exercises, can I ask how much experience you've had using strength programs with free weights?
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  4. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    a couple years in high school and then struggling with it my first year in the Navy. Then I went over the 1stMarDiv and started working with Marines. I met up with a couple of Corpsman that did all BW (dips, pullups/chins, pushups of all kinds, rope climbing, squats, etc). They were the best at simply picking folks up and fireman-carrying them around, & since that was a large part of my job description (picking up and/or moving wounded Marines) I jumped on the band wagon.
    I've met plenty of guys that can lift weights but it doesn't translate well over to practical use. Example: a Corporal that I lived with could military press more than his BW, but couldn't do a handstand pushup. Didn't make sense. He could bench 350+lbs but couldn't do a one-armed pushup, regardless of how hard he tried.
    I found that with BW, you optimize your strength-to-bodyweight and your ability to move your own body is maximized, which has been a concern of mine since starting MA's in my teens. Weights are good, I'm not saying that they're not, but BW is more efficient. The same amount of work put into BW as weight-lifting yields much better results, for my purposes. Less gear, less time, more yield, MHO.
  5. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    Any resistance training will improve your ability to deliver more force.

    Why are you on about this "Maximum reps" bit? I've repeatedly said that my goal is not just endurance through more reps, but mostly strength training through increased leverage. I thought that would have been clear by now... :confused:
    Look at some of the articles and vids that I've posted. Don't lump me in with some marathon-rep calisthenics maniacs.
    If this is all being cast upon deaf ears, I'd rather not waste my time repeating the same information over and over. I have better things to do...
  6. Gary

    Gary Vs The Irresistible Farce Supporter

    Seriously, I have seen people trained on bodyweight and I have seen people trained with weights. Out of the two it is always the guys who have used weights that know their body and have more applied power. From your description of your experience you sound like you did a little bit of weights, then skipped over to BW as soon as you got the chance.

    You still have not described what you can do with bodyweight that you cannot do with weights. The reason I mention the reps is because that is the first reason you posted for BW superiority. Your examples of why weights dont work revolve around people who have only trained weights. Cross training across several tools and free weights are always the better tool. Whatever BW exercise you choose, additional resistance added with weights can improve it.
  7. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    No. Your basic argument is that BW exercises are superior based on your posts, your percieved biason Colucci's article, and the articles you linked to. I don't agree to that. My position is that both have their uses depending on your goals and/or what is required to succeed (or at least be better) at your sport.

    I'm very sorry but my internet connection isn't up to standards right now. Do the videos show Gotch performing planches? Do they show Gotch doing handstands and then shifting to planches? Would somebody be so kind as to say this so (preferrably not you doc_jude for reasons you should understand).

    Sure I called it weights. Then you called it resistance exercises. Then I called it PROGRESSIVE resistance exercises. One reason why freeweights are more commonly employed than high leverage BW training is because it is very hard to acquire or set adequate progressive increments.

    Not adequately no. From the article you linked to:

    He stated this but did not expound on why they are useful. He did not explain why they are employed. He only presented them as an alternative.

    You asked for documentation. Then you say you don't care. :confused:

    The sad fact about professional fighting is that you get to lose some matches. Royce Gracie, Frank Shamrock, Crocop, Mike Tyson, almost all professional fighters lose some fights in their professional career. :rolleyes:

    I agree on the truth of what you say. I just don't agree on your assumption that BW training is superior

    Well if that's your response to that particular statement then maybe you haven't employed a coherent freeweight program.

    I repeat:

    You provided you own answer. He did it by destroing his sumo wrestler's balance and threw the latter with a technique that is Mifune's trademark. Why is it his trademark? Because he was VERY good at it. His brute force was gained through years of throwing people and along it his technique was perfected. This is more efficient in terms of training time than applying certain gymnastic exercises to your training (for most people it takes at least six months of continuous practice to do a perfect planche with ease)

    The point here is that he needed a certain level of strength to destroy the other guy's balance.

    Heck man, judoka do ukemi on a consistent basis whether the uke is young or old, fat or thin, small or large. Besides he was challenged. Do you think Mifune would be up to the challenge if the Kodokan did not employ tried and tested efficient strength and technical training?

    Sorry if you felt ignored. But I have things in my life other than logging on to MAP and responding to you. I do have to manage my time effectively you know with family, job, MA, etc. :)

    Thanks for the support. I agree with the fact that done intelligently, BW exercises do provide high intensity workouts by manipulating leverage. The problem is to get any higher would be difficult, especially if you do not have the luxury of time for training with the event coming soon. This is where freeweights come in where you do not have to worry too much about getting the needed dexterity for the exercise (as in the case of planches) -- dexterity that is very unlikely to be necessary to the sport.

    People who do freeweights can do that too.

    It's good that you can do such exercises. But does it mean that you can consistently perform better than those who do freeweights in sports like MMA?

    For your purposes, strict BW only is good. But saying that BW is superior for everything is what I completely disagree with.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2007
  8. Colucci

    Colucci My buddies call me Chris.

    Once again, I just recently received my updates to this thread's subscriptions, otherwise I would've certainly responded sooner (maybe).

    The issue seems to be closed, so I'll just say that it seems if I had titled the article "Top Two Reasons To Perform Resistance Training. Not So Plain & Simple, But Possibly Biased. However, I'm Allowed To Be Since I Wrote The Thing In The First Place, So Obviously It's Going To Express My Own Personal And Professional Opinions", we could've avoided the whole issue. So maybe I should've gone with that. My bad. :rolleyes:

    Free weights, bodyweight, kettlebells, sandbags...they're all means to an end, or an end to the means. I always confuse those two. The point is, just like with fad diets, as soon as you say "Do (or eat) only this, and none of those," you're hindering yourself from making maximum progress.

    But since the situation seems resolved, I'm glad it at least sparked some kind of discussion. Misguided and misinterpreted though it may have been.
  9. vingaard

    vingaard New Member

    Weight training makes the difference .It is a myth that you get slow.It depends how you lift.Good article.
  10. Colucci

    Colucci My buddies call me Chris.

    Thanks, vingaard. Glad you liked it.
  11. Slick Al

    Slick Al New Member

    I'm late on this discussion. But if you haven't done weights while you've been training in a Martial Art, it is a valuable substitute to gain more mass and hence more power.
    If you slow down or stop with the fight training for a while and continue with the weights to put on more size, than it will become more of a hindrance. You find that you do loose speed and flexibility.
    In other words, you can't have one without the other unless you want to stay ahead of the game.
  12. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    *Waits for someone to jump in and tell him that beeing musclebound is a myth*

    Oh wait someone already did.

    If you train correctly, more muscle mass wont cause you to become slower and/or less flexible, that's total and utter BS. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2007
  13. Prophet

    Prophet ♥ H&F ♥

    To summorize this thread:

    Body weight exersises are not superior, nor inferior to iron plates on a bar.

    Iron plates on a bar can do everything bodyweight can do.

    Iron plates on a bar + bodyweight exersises is best (but not nessicarily best either).

    It seems like people generally like to flap their gums on subjects they are not very knowledgeable about - especially about 'fitness'. If I asked you Doc_Jude, what would the effect exersice selection has on your body at a cellular level, you probably couldnt tell me much.

    Yet, amazingly, if you knew what goes down inside your body.... ....this thread wouldnt be here. *gasp*


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