To RedBagani Filipino Emptyhanded arts-Pangamut,yaw-yan

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Viking, Jun 19, 2005.

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  1. Viking

    Viking Valued Member

    Hi Bayani.

    Thank you for the information.Could you please give me some mpre in formation.
    Like, is Dumpag a newly added system in PTK and is it different from other PTK empty hands(I mean the empty hand translation of Knife fighting).I read that, GT Leo T. Gaje, Jr. is conducting a lot of research in other countries like Indonasia and malaysia to find the pure art .I recently found an article about Dumog(it's called Dumog Toda Todas) written by GT Leo T. Gaje, Jr.I 'm posting it here

    DUMOG Todo Todas(

    Dumog Todo Todas "Last stand last fight'

    Dumog -Pangamut the last remaining secret of the Kumanggis fighting system now in the hands of Pekiti-Tirsia unveils the Dumog Todo Todas combative structure that propels the inner power from the Dumoguero's breath releasing all the energy to completely destroy the enemy.
    In Dumog Todo Todas it is a triple force compared to the regular Dumpag bring a little mercy during execution. All the techiques of Dumog Todo Todas brings a new feeling of explosion that once engage with the enemy a barrage of attack and continuity of the follow ups can never be stopped. Dumog Todo Todas is not only a term but a terminology to terminate the opponent within the merciful time.

    Dumog Todo Todas is the extreme use of deadly techniques that all that is not allowed in regular training with be utilized in split second action.

    Dumoguero's philosophy is " Give me place where to Stand I will move the Earth"

    For the Dumoguero Todo Todas philosophy is " No place deeper than my enemies Grave"

    The Dumog Todo Todas trainning is far superior than the Regular Dumoguero:

    A. Toughening of the arm, hands, finger tips, legs and shin down to the blade of the foot. Done by creating an object built by the dry seaweeds wrap in abacca ropes and tighten along the body of the guava tree. For the feet and for the body and to head are all covered with the Seaweeds.
    The secret of the sea weeeds is no matter how strong the current underwater the seaweeds cannot be removed and it's a shelter of most poisonous fishes under the sea. Seaweed has certain power compared to other underwater plants.

    Most of the Dumogueros migrate closer to the shore line, because the season for hard training are months of summer where the sand are hot and the sun is scourging with heat. This is the test of the Dumogeros Todo Todas .The poison used by these Dumogueros is different than the Mountain group Dumogueros where the use of Scorpion and Centipede as a poison is most common. But the Dumog Todo Todas the use the fish that lives among the seaweeds that produces milky substances more highly potent than any poisonous snake underwater.

    It is dangerous to live among these tribes of warriors, it is uncommon that they mixed with another tribe or group of people.

    It has been discovered lately that a copperplate dated back 900 BC was found in Laguna close to Metro Manila by a fisherman. There was an inscription of a very unique language it is vry difficult to decipher and this reveals that the early inhabitants of the Philippines had their footings 900 BC . Open the web site www. and it explains more about the true exsitence of the Kayumanggis. This means that whatever the Dumogueros are using in terms of the fighting technology cannot be questioned. Their skill to kill the enemy was very unique and treacherous.

    The Technology of the true Dumpag and the Todo Todas is the final chapter of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali System.

    The Research and Development program of Pekiti-Tirsia extends to the land of Iranjyaya in the Northern tip of Indonesian Peninsula close to Papua New Ginea. Search for true indigenous technology in the Philippines and nearby Countries of Asia that had link top the Malay culture opens more research materials to authentic the truth of the real fighting system.

    By the year 2006, a delegation of Pekiti-Tirsia research team will visit Papua New Ginea as Guest of the Prime Minister of Papapua linking the the Filipino Culture to the 13,699 Islands once the great Sri Vijyay Empire.

    Dumog is not a strange fighting system. It is practice by the natives even among the cannibals of Iran jaya, Indonesia, by the inhabitants of Borneo, Burma and nearby Islands but Philippines had develop a more sophisticated Dumog to counter other tribes using the skill of ground fighting as to Harimaw of Indonesia and the Menangkabao

    Pekiti-tirsia as an indigenous system blends to all these findings and to carry on the tradition found among the natives to be brought to new world of civilization. It extends the knowldege of discovery in more deeper findings than the regular culture.The fact that these skill are dangerous, it warns us that there is such danger in the culture that we have to be aware and to defend ourselves in case it may happend.

    Pekiti-Tirsia is for family kept, it is not a commercial art. It provides a guarantee of training with guranteed result.
    "He who live by the sword shall live by the sword but he who is ignorant of the sword shall die by the sword"

    GT. GAJE

    Do you know more about this system?Is there any Dumog very similar to the Harimau Silat from Sumatra.I heard that there is a crocodile fighting system(Sabak System) in southern Philippines.
    And can Pangamut in Pekiti Tirsia Kali be compared to any of the Silat system and can you please tell how is it differantt from other empty handed systems (in principles ,techniques etc).How is the PTK Dumpag different from Garimot Harimaw Buno.

    ThankYou VeryMuch

    Last edited: Oct 26, 2005
  2. Viking

    Viking Valued Member

    Thank You ,Littlebadboy

  3. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    i have no experience with ptk dumog or dumpag, but i have spent some time studying harimau silat (through mande muda, but hopefully soon also harimau minangkabau), and harimaw buno from the garimot system.

    i see a lot of similarities between harimau silat and harimaw buno. many of the throws, locks, and pins are very close, if not identical. however, there's a big difference in the 'attitude' in these styles. harimaw buno is very much a wrestling style, where harimau silat is more of a loose grappling style. anyone who's studied silat and wrestling/grappling knows what i mean- silat operates in a grappling range, but doesn't clinch and pin the way that traditional wrestling arts do. so close, but so far away, as guro abon says.

    standing, harimaw buno is the closest thing i've seen to silat (not just harimau). many throws are identical, and some are almost unnoticably different. when it hits the ground is when they truly diverge. some are still close if not identical, but the philosophy of pinning is different. harimaw buno, being a wrestling style, usually pins the hips or shoulders to control the opponent. harimau silat, however, tends to pin the limbs in order to control the opponent. hard to describe in words, but easy to show.

    there's also a difference in the posture of the tiger in the two arts. for throwing, harimaw buno's tiger throws often manipulate the opponent's upper body to effect the throw. harimau silat tends to attack the legs and hips to bring the opponent down. harimaw buno's tiger position on the ground literally mimics a tiger- prone, hands and feet (only) touching the ground. good for pinning shoulders and hips and isolating limbs. harimau silat's tiger position on the ground is often more upright, with only the lower body touching the ground. these are all generalizations to draw contrast, not hard and fast rules.

    harimaw buno also contains monkey postures, attitudes, and techniques. these are also similar to pamonyet silat, but yet again, different. what i find interesting is that in mande muda silat, the animal styles are tiger and monkey. in harimaw buno, the primary animal styles are also tiger and monkey. for me, they represent the classic dichotomy of fighting- hard/soft, aggressive/defensive, direct/indirect, etc. it's probable that there is malay influence. the controversial claims of harimaw buno's origins and traditional training methods have been discussed earlier in this thread, so there's no need to bring it up again. i don't have the resources to investigate the history.

    if you have any questions or clarifications, i'll try to answer.

  4. Viking

    Viking Valued Member

    Hi Tim
    Thank You
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2005
  5. Viking

    Viking Valued Member

    hi tim,
    Thank you and it is really informative.I know that the harimau silat fighter direcly goes to the ground to attack the lowerlimbs of the opponent and bring him down,destroy the opponent by breaking their limbs,attacking the vulnerable areas like groin,throat etc or smashing the head to the ground etc.Howz the harimaw buno fighter like?From your experience,which one you feel more practical?
    Thank You
  6. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    when the goal of an art is to take someone to the ground, basically all arts (southeast asian, anyway) are going to be like you described, with the exception of attacking the lower limbs (specifically targetted in harimau silat, maybe not in other arts). there's a lot more variation in harimaw buno, so it's hard to generalize. harimau silat is almost all kicking and groundfighting. harimaw buno incorporates a lot of standing grappling (clinch) and striking, including things like chokes that are not in harimau silat that i've seen.

    maybe a complete style of harimau silat has more tactics than i've seen (almost all of my exposure comes from mande muda), but comparing it to harimaw buno isn't very fair. despite the word 'harimaw,' buno is not just tiger style wrestling, and is more versatile than harimau silat. it may be less misleading to think of it as 'garimot buno.'

    my experience consists only of training. i'm not the world's deadliest streetfighter- i avoid conflict. i've had the fortune of living in neighborhoods where i don't have to worry about my safety, or that of my family, daily.

    with that disclaimer, i believe that practicality is predicated entirely upon the situation in which you're likely to find yourself. harimaw buno has many more options than harimau silat- but again, i study harimau silat in conjunction with other styles of silat which supplement it.

  7. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan

    YawYan Ardigma

    Greetings my friends...

    I was asked to share my views about YawYan Ardigma...

    I honestly dont know much about the style but it is apparently the best style of Yaw-Yan since its the latest style developed by Master Nap...

    But heres what most YawYans probably dont know yet...

    Ardigma was originally designed to beat Yaw-Yan fighters...SHOCKING???

    Yup...Master Nap was so disppointed with YawYan fighters joining competitions only to lose and give YawYan a bad name...

    Years ago...before a YawYan fighter can fight in any competition, he needs the blessing of Master Nap...and Master Nap will tell you if youre ready or not.

    Lately, a lot of YawYan fighters who didnt really train hard will join competetions to earn a few bucks...underestimating his opponent and only to lose and give YawYan a bad name...

    But senior brothers like Sir Armando Liban and Major Wanasen as well as a great friend RJ Marcaida convinced the Master to still make Ardigma under YawYan...after a lot of debates and stuff, they were able to convince Master Nap to make it

    YawYan Ardigma...

    The new Makati gym offers this new style of YawYan...they hold a weekly fight night featuring YawYans vs YawYans...e.g. Pasay vs Makati...Ardigma vs Texas...etc...

    YawYan is slowly getting back to the right track with the help of the Group in general...Team Pasay and Makati are so active with Barungkol (Von Bautista)
    doing a great job in sharing infos over the net...Chef Ro too is doing great by being so loyal to YawYan despite the heavy competition in the MMA scene...and promoting the new Makati Team...

    I hope that this tread does not make other stylists feel under estimated or anything like that...we are just loyal followers of YawYan and hoping that we can promote YawYan to the world...

    I also like other styles specially MuayThai And BJJ

    more pOwer tO EVERYONE

    Philippine Yaw-Yan Martial Arts League
    MuayThai Assn of the Philippines
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2005
  8. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan


    Hi...Iwas just asked to share my comments about Yaw-Yan Ardigma without even reading your posts...til now.

    I have to say, you know what you are saying and my highest respects to you.

    I joined Yaw-Yan in 1988, established my own branch in Cubao known as YawYan Team Cubao (Of course he he) and became the Club Director but the gym was more popularly ran by Senior YawYan Orlando Lapuz...

    I was also at ringside during the Siscon-Zapata fight at the Ninoy Aquino Stadium...any Zapata fights before the Siscon -Zapata fight, I knew only tru stories and pictures and VHS Tapes...

    By the time i joined YawYan, Pareng Zapata was practically the guy most fighters (if not all) dont want to fight. Even Tadefas fighters were beaten by Zapata...the Famous Catampatans...

    Another great Zapata fight is when Zapata defeated a great Fighter John Mark Fabila who fought in Thailand as a pro boxer, later recruited by the Great Monching Gavileno to fight under Bokaido to beat Zapata...of course after beating other local kickboxers first...

    Zapata won the fight against Fabila and Fabila later joined the YawYan Cubao Team...and from his own mouth he confessed that Zapata is the best fighter he ever fought...John Mark is now under the Kalasag team by Franco Guerero who used to train also under YawYan...

    But I have to confess that your story about Tadefa beating Zapata is a story I heard for the first time...I will ask our YawYan Website WebMaster to correct any errors posted regarding that fight...OF COURSE AFTER CLEARING IT WITH MASTER NAP AND SIR ZAPATA...

    Im sure Zapata is honest and man enough to say what really happened...I have pictures of the Tadefa -Zapata fight but your picture is without a doubt the most important piece of the puzzle so to speak...

    If I may be allowed to be biassed a bit...the picture shows that Zapata lost via decision...while most of the Zapata fights were won by Zapata via KO or TKO...

    but a lost is a lost and so if he did lose that Tadefa fight over a decision, then we need to correct some details in the YawYan website fast...

    As FOR Bakbakan...their fighters and instructors are very respectable...I know only one fight in the ring featuring YawYan vs Bakbakan and thats the Siscon -Zapata fight...other than that fight...i have no knowledge of.

    I do know that Zapata, Valdez, Lapuz and a few other YawYans were brought to the Bakbakan gym by Senior YawYan Boy Garcia to spar with their fighters...Zapata was scheduled to fight Miguel Zubiri that day but for some reasons it was cancelled. Other YawYan who were seen in action that day gave the bakbakan fighters a good fight in their own gym...who won? Everybody present that day won even those who didnt fight...just watching those fights makes one a winner...

    Regarding ArDigma...the Mkati gym is advertised as an Ardigma gym...Ill be there on their fight night in Nov18 and will check it out...

    I do know that the official YawYan Ardigma Camp is in Bulacan...where Master Nap resides...

    Its open for anyone who wants to learn YawYan Ardigma but you need to stay in the Camp for a few months...thats right, Stay In The CAMP for a few months...

    My best regards to all of you specially to RedBagani and all our friends and followers of Yaw-Yan...

    Advert Deleted

    More power to Martial Arts Planet

    Wanlu Lunaria
    Phil YawYan FootBoxing League
    MuayThai Assn of the Philippines

    Mabuhay ang YawYan
    One World -One MuayThai
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2005
  9. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan


    This is from an old thread and I wanted to post it here since the old thread might be over looked already...

    Originally Posted by RedBagani

    Wanlu, wittingly or unwittingly, became a spokesman for Yaw Yan propaganda when he brought out photos of Tadefa allegedly being "punished and eventually knocked out". The photos do not show that. The face of the person being hit by Zapata is not clearly seen. That person could be anyone, including Wanlu himself. In the real fight, which happened in 1984, nobody was knocked out but everytime Zapata tried to kick, he was floored several times by Tadefa. IN THE END, THE REFEREE DECLARED TADEFA THE WINNER OF THE BOUT. There is absolutely no truth that Rolly Tadefa was KO'd by Zapata.

    Obviously, Wanlu did not witness that fight. Or maybe he was just asleep. If he had only followed his own advise and asked Tadefa who won the fight, he would have gotten an honest answer. IT WAS TADEFA WHO WON. I asked Rolly himself and he clearly told me that it was him who won the bout over Zapata.

    Wanlu also erred in insinuating that Rolly Tadefa's students are blind fanatics who cannot be trusted to know the truth about their instructor. What makes him think that it can't be the other way around and it is the Yaw Yan people who cannot accept the fact that the great Emilio Zapata was defeated? I have friends from both Yaw Yan and Tadefa's school. It is unfair to side with one without getting the view of the other. Tadefa does not encourage cultism. He even told his students many times, "I am just a guide; I am not your master". On the other hand, YawYan members are instructed to call Nap Fernandez "Grandmaster". The training headquarters is called a "Temple". Advanced students are branded with a hot iron bearing the circular Yaw Yan logo. It is up to the readers to decide which group has the greater propensity to be fanatical.

    Wanlu was correct in saying two things. One is he believes that Tat Kun Tou (not Tat Kun Tao) must be a good style. Two, he said that Rolly Tadefa is a good and honest man. I strongly agree on both counts.

    I don't know if Wanlu is still active in MAP. But if he is, I have a proposal for him. Wanlu, you imply that you have more than a casual acquiantance with master Rolly Tadefa. However, you have gravely wronged Tadefa by perpetuating misinformation and tarnishing his good record. If you are on the side of TRUTH, and not politicking, then you have to make amendments. Follow your own advice, ask Rolly Tadefa who really won in that fight 21 years ago and tell the readers of MAP his honest answer. If you have lost contact with Rolly, PM me and tell me who you are and your contact number (preferably mobile phone) and I will forward it to Rolly who resides in Cebu City right now. If you are who you say you are, that you have been with Tadefa for a long time, there is no reason why he will not contact you.

    It is time that this gross error be rectified. Master Rolly Tadefa is a personal friend who has to be granted the proper respect. If I had a friend in Yaw Yan who was likewise maligned, I would also do the same for him as I am doing for master Rolly Tadefa.

    Posted by Wanlu

    I have been inactive in MAP for quite a while and Im answering it just now...


    What I posted re the Tadefa vs Zapata fight is the Info I got from my Seniors...I will be meeting with Sir Zapata this weekend at the Makati gym and get the real score and publish it here and at the YawYan Chatline...

    Im not stupid to make up stories...I was not at the fight but my claim was based on infos from my Seniors...but AGAIN I APOLOGIZE...

    I have to confess that this is even the first time I heard your version of the fight and seeing the picture only proves you are correct and Im wrong...

    As for the YawYan Website...Im not the WebMaster...If the Photo link is down as you claim...then thats good. I will ask YawYan USA to correct mistakes ASAP...Again,it was an honest mistake and again I apologize...

    Believe me...If Tadefa is in Manila today, Id personally ask him about the fight...but for Now all I can do is to APOLOGIZE to all of you and again it was an honest mistake...

    I have several photos of that fight that convinced me that Zapata won that fight...but your piece without a doubt proves me wrong...

    FYI was really Tadefa in m pictures and sad to say that no it wasnt me wearing Tadefas pants that night...WITH ALL DUE RESPECTS SIR, you seem to be in the scene longer than I have been with YawYan but if I may ask, is it not possible that we are talking of two different bouts...

    Again, I will be meeting Pareng Zapata this weekend and will ask the real story and post it here...


    Wanlu Lunaria
    Yaw-Yan Batch '88
  10. RedBagani

    RedBagani Valued Member

    Hello Wanlu & fellow Mappers,

    I read Wanlu's post a few days ago and my first instinct was to immediately post a reply and demand clarifications. I admit I was hyped up at that time since I believed that an apology to Master Rolly Tadefa was long overdue. I put off posting anything for a few days because I did not want to write anything that I would regret later. It seems that keeping silent and cooling off for a few days was a wise decision on my part.

    Wanlu, I can understand your feelings of loyalty to Yaw-Yan. Please understand also my feeling of loyalty to Master Rolly Tadefa. I have tried to be as objective as possible over this issue so I have not revealed, up to this time, that Rolando Tadefa is not just a good friend, but was also my instructor. In behalf of Master Rolly Tadefa, I accept your apologies.

    I still say that Yaw Yan is a great style. I actually trained in it for a few months before shifting to Master Rolly Tadefa. Unfortunately, he is now in Cebu City.

    Plug Removed

    Wanlu, let's meet this December at the SEA games and have coffee together.

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2005
  11. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan


    Yup...Im officiating at the MuayThai fights for the SEA Games...Coffee is on me and perhaps we can talk more about the Zapata-Tadefa fight 21 years were there and Id love to hear more details...

    Allow me to apologize one more time...What I posted were anecdotes from my Seniors and there was no other way to reconfirm it...ITS ALWAYS FAIR THAT THE TRUTH IS TOLD AND RECORDS SET STRAIGHT.

    I feel so bad that I was inactive in MAP for a while since I sold my I have a new one and Il try to be here often...

    any questions about YawYan will be answered but this time with confirmation from Master Nap or Sir Zapata...

    I have been inactive with YawYan since the time I gave up my YawYan Cubao gym...but continued to be a YawYan follower and brother up to the present. I am now taking up MuayThai and have been active with the MuayThai NSA ...

    I love MuayThai because of its simplicity yet so effective...and how the Thais are so solid when it comes to promoting their art worldwide...One world-One MuayThai

    I love YawYan because its our own style and I really feel that YawYan dserves a worldwide recognition ...If given the chance, I know YawYan will surprise the World...

    It would be an honor for me to sit down with you at the SEA Games...

    My best regards to you and your family...

    Last edited: Nov 15, 2005
  12. burungkol

    burungkol Team Yaw-Yan

    well, as i've talked to sir Zapata last saturday night, he said he'll also help out for the philippine muay thai team. i guess you'll have to order another cup of coffee, sir wanlu :).
  13. Scotty Dog

    Scotty Dog

    Welcome Back to MAP Wanlu,

    Please remember our Terms of Service (Links at the bottom of the page) & post and events in the events forum.

    Ta Much :D
  14. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan

    Re SEA Games Coffee

    Yes dude...if you will be there too, coffee is on me for you, RedBagani and Sir long as you take care of the sandwiches...

    See you all at the SEA Games...

  15. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan

    SEA Games

    In the coming South East Asian (SEA) Games in the Philippines Nov 27-Dec5, 2005, specifically MUAY (MuayThai) Events...let us be one as a clubs, no politics, no styles...just one Nation after the Gold...for the Glory of God and our Country...

    Our MuayThai team has been into a lot of tests...trained so hard to catch the World's attention...or at least catch the Nation's attention to attract more athletes in participating in the MuayThai events...regardless of Martial arts background...

    Help your National Team win the Golds...

    The MuayThai Assn of he Philippines requests your presence in the MUAY (MuayThai) Events...any help, support, cheer coming from you will be considered an honor for
    our MuayThai athletes...

    Go Philippines
  16. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan

    The Philippine MuayThai Team just won a Gold at the Asian Indoor Games 2005 held in Thailand courtesy of Billy Alumno (Formerly of YawYan Baguio under Sir Louie Mateo and is now part of the National MuayThai team of the Philippines under Fellow YawYan and now National Coach -Sir Robert Valdez)

    Billy Alumno defeated an honorable fighter from Jordan at the finals to earn the Gold for the Philippines...

    Congratulations Billy...

    Mabuhay Philippines...

    One World-One MuayThai

    Last edited: Nov 16, 2005
  17. reydominguez

    reydominguez Valued Member

    We'll watch your games....
    count me in for a bottle of beer

    Good luck Pinoys! :woo: :Angel: :woo:
  18. RedBagani

    RedBagani Valued Member

  19. burungkol

    burungkol Team Yaw-Yan

    guess we can have that after the games :love: would u treat us rey? :p
  20. gatsbi

    gatsbi New Member

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