To Kata or not to kata

ROFL!!!

Sorry could'nt resist!

|Cain|

 

Nae bother Sonshu

Sorry I cant take this thread seriously anymore and will post nonsense on it until the conversation gets back to the threads original subject.

Get back in line guys

 

On the topic...

I find that some elements in forms find their way into our self defence and step sparring lessons as well. I find the value in learning these series of techniques in a form by creating a brain pattern... a kind of reflx to using this move and it is backed up by the proper (if taught properly) form for power. Examples:

(1) In Taegook 7 there is series where you slide forward with a double forearm block (choke block) that transitions into a grab of the forearms (or collars) and pull them into a nasty knee strike. The form really reinforces getting the block right and the stances needed for the power of the strike. There is a similar series in the 3rd ITF form as well.

(2) In "Koryo", there is a series with a quick open handed low block (probably deflecting a low roundhouse kick to the knee) with an immediate tiger-mouth strike to the throat. Practcing this makes that series go very smoothly... and it should be natural the next time a low roundhouse comes in... if you decide to go in and attack and not evade and slide out.

(3) In Taegook 5 - there are two series of elbow slashes... one from a rear elbow in a back stance and one is a follow-up from a side kick. Working these together shows you why the stances and hip movement are so important for power in these strikes.

There are more examples but I can't think of them right now off the top of my head (Feeling a bit sick today so please be kind). Some detractors will probably respond "You can teach or drill those techniques without using forms..." Yes, you can. We do it through the forms for the uniform coverage of material and to prevent missing items that we think are importnat. Also forms correspond to belt levels and reinforce techniques that those belt levels should be working on. Forms are not the end-all, be-all of training but they are a method that many practioners like and can use effectively.

Somebody asked about doing forms exactly as taught or modify them... as I posted before students learn them first "as the master does them". Once they have the sequence down, we look and see if they need to be modified. We rarely change sequence (because it is pretty well established) but sometimes change the way we deliver strikes... I think many schools do... which is why you'll find many variations of the same form in different schools (and in the same... e.g. the form of Koryo I learned in Korea is slightly different from the way our school does it here.)

 

Can people please answer these questions.

Does performing kata/poomse/forms improve co-ordination?

Do they offer the practitioner a form of exercise?

Do they allow the practice of technique? (compared to constant repitition)

Do they help create a more disciplined mind?

Do they prepare a practitioner for a violent scenario? (Please consider the above questions before answering this one)

Thank you for your time.

Colin

 

Does performing kata/poomse/forms improve co-ordination?

Yes

Do they offer the practitioner a form of exercise?

Yes

Do they allow the practice of technique? (compared to constant repitition)

Yes

Do they help create a more disciplined mind?

For some I suppose whereas some people will always be scatterbrained

Do they prepare a practitioner for a violent scenario?

Not totally but nothing can totally prepare a person for any given violent situation

 

Does performing kata/poomse/forms improve co-ordination?
yes
Do they offer the practitioner a form of exercise?
yes
Do they allow the practice of technique? (compared to constant repitition)
yes. In my style of MA, we practice kata solo, but then quickly progress to using them as two-man drills, so kata and techniques become seamlessly woven together. Obviously, when using kata as a technique, we may not do it exactly the same as when we're doing a solo drill.
Do they help create a more disciplined mind?
yes
Do they prepare a practitioner for a violent scenario? (Please consider the above questions before answering this one)
no, but I don't think this matters, as long as you're not spending 100% of all class time on kata. The other benefits make it worthwhile.

ETA: my 300th post, whoo hoo!

 

Improve coordination?
Yes, but not to the extent that hands on does.

Exercise?
YES!!

Practice of Tech?
Yes, most of our katas are made of techniques, and it also shows that when your done with a technique, you may not be done with the fight.

Diciplined Mind?
Yes.

Preparation?
Maybe they don't help with being prepared, but being aware.

 

My take

Improve coordination?

For thoes moves yes as any repetition will do, drills, bag or anything involving movement or motion.

Exercise?

Without a doubt, you can also vary the levels which is good.

Practice of Tech?

Yes the ones in it, which if kata is done to much you will only be practicing these techniques in a set pattern and drills are better. Kata is not live practice and fine if you are on your own (as I have always said) but, should it be part of your grading by getting it all spick and span (dont feel it should) Also time spent compaired to results gained. Martial Arts for SD is my interest (all different I know) but TKD/Aikido/Kung Fu or any SD art for that matter will better prepair its SD students for its use by dropping things like the stances and moves (refers to Sonshu pics in Karate section) and adding to it practical stuff that will help us all so much more or drop the SD publicity idea it keeps - there are always gonna be exceptions but to the majority of us mere mortals some things are not gonna happen.

Diciplined Mind?

To a point but the whole art should add this not just the Kata and the instructor should be able to add this - In Taijitsu and JKD there are so little kata (think in JKD anyhow) and these people are as disciplined? BJA Judo do it at 3rd dan as well there nice people as well.

Preparation?

No not really - drill work is better as you have moving things to work off and you can see the development of your own ability and measure your results improving.

IN SHORT I GUESS WE ALL KNOW THAT DRILL WORK IS BETTER FOR SD PURPOSES THAN THESE FORMS. SO WOULD IT NOT BE BETTER TO BRING THEM MORE UP TO THE MODERN WORLD - VIEWS ON THIS?



:Angel:

 

Re: My take

I like drill work and I like forms. We usually reinforce our forms with drills and our drills with the forms. An added benefit of the forms is the continuation of a tradition (important to some people) and uniformity across a style (and to the curriculum). Of course, if you make the drills uniform and sequential, aren't you making a sort of form system anyway?

My main point is I don't really understand the people who want everyone to get rid of forms. To me, forms serve a purpose in our school, are fun, motivate some people, and are REQUIRED by our grandmasters... so if we have to do them, do them as best as we can. If you control the curriculum and don't want to do them... eliminate them if you choose.

Now, as far as modifying forms... I support this. If you are doing something in a form that either doesn't work or no one can explain why it's done... consider changing it, eliminating it, or if you have to keep it, not focus as much on it.

For me , I can run through my forms to make sure I know them in about 20 minutes (21 forms or so)... When I do them at the normal speed and power and immerse myselkf in them... I could do them for hours. I don't have the time. I spend a few minutes before evry class doing them and we spend about 10-15 minutes a class (or sometimes a week) teaching and watching forms for the students... not a big amount of time.

 

Are there bits you dislike or struggle with?

I understand keeping them for traditions sake but its and odd concept to me.

I can understand if it aint broke dont try to fix it but??? There are people who dont like it - sigh when they are asked to do it as well and you could be losing potental great students by doing so much.

So do you struggle with parts and if so what?

 

Yeah, go to your modern world if you don't like forms, forget karate or CMA, all the ranting on a forum ain't going to change that

Some people prefer only drills while some feel kata enhances their training in which other purposes are what FF mentioned.

Let's look at some of the self evident things on this forum -

No style is better than other style [Doh!]

You can't debate wether a dead martial artist will win in the UFC

You can't compare a who would win between Bruce and [insert shamrock, Tysom, Oyama, Tito, Jet Li etc etc]

And a new one....

YOU CAN'T COMPARE DIFFERENT METHODS OF TRAINING BECAUSE THEY ARE USED FOR DFFERENT PURSOSES !!!

:Angel:

|Cain|

 

Cain

Sounds like you have directed your post at me and I agree 100% with you.

I am not looking to compaire I am now wanting to look at different patterns?

Pro's and Con's - I dont care about who would win against Bruce Lee - the guy is no longer alive.

 

I just directed the last line where you mentioned in your last para that drills are better methods of training.

ANd forget that Bruce Lee thing, I just wanter to add my last para in the list of those self evident rules

|Cain|

 

Re: Are there bits you dislike or struggle with?

I don't think we lose students because of forms... mainly because we really don't spend that much time on them in class. Out of the normal 6-8 hours of instruction that I am at, we have about 30 minute to an hour of forms. Also, we split students up to work on forms and once they have "it", they grab a poartner and work 1-steps, self defence, or whatever else until we come back together as a class. The time we spend on forms has never been an issue with the students to the best of my knowledge.

About struggling with parts... yes... there are some things in some of the forms that I want to say "that won't work" or "I don't like it"... I've talked them through with the master and sometimes he guides me on how to use it (sometimes with a modification). Other times he says "I agree... but you gotta have it for the test." In those cases, I learn it and do it for the test... there are some things in life (and work) that you do because you got to.

In my honest appraisal... I love forms and really like to do them. I think about half of our students are this way and you see them coming in before class (or staying after) to get extra practice on them. Other people come in and spend their 'extra' time grappling or doing self defence... just depends.

 

Hi,
Kata need to first be memorized (hopefully intact in their older versions), next trained to instill conditioned reflex, and also during the training time they must be broken down and analysed for their content. It really helps to have an instructor who already knows the old interpretations of the movements, of which there are often many for each one move.

After learning many of the older interpretations, things begin to gradually make sense. The kata is a vehicle through which basic movement patterns are transmitted; we should use the kata as a tool to practice the older aplications. Then they will come out at need. Basic movement patterns are initiated, and keeping the eyes open allows you to select which particular movement pattern to end with. Thus you are halfway done and fully accelerated before the opponent has even given themself away, yet you can react properly and instantly. Instead of blocking and then striking, you circle and deflect while striking. Your strike lands as the opponent's misses, and they have no chance to recover.

And no, you most likely will not be able to use these ideas sparring easily, largely because sparring is not realistic at all. The problem is with sparring, not with kata.

When you learn even just one of the older grappling applications, over time it jumps out at you in places you never suspected in the katas; this leads to insight into alternative meanings.

Certain old concepts are needed in mind. Always circle on the way in; no circle, no cover; no cover, no block; no block, no breathe. Modern Karate seeks to use straight lines, even though the human form is only marginally capable of doing so. And also, there is no technique without relaxation.

Unfortunately I can not teach you this over the internet; you should find it for yourself. It is real, it is out there.

-Chris J.

 

I think this thread links in well with a current one...

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo............

What have you done?????

*Runs screaming from the room

 

*locks the door and hammers boards over the door

Now your trapped!

Muhahahaha! :yeleyes:



|Cain|

 

I shamelessly admit I'm a visceral kata-hater. They are useless for selfdefence, useless for fighting @ a tournament, useless for everything. What is the use of slow, mechanical movements in a combat situation? They are crap (sorry if that counts as bad language, moderators).
My verdict is definitely 'Not to kata.'

 

I might have said this before but:
Bruce Lee said "do not mistake the finger pointing to the ocean, as the ocean"

A kata is the finger, through the learning and endless repetition, you will eventually find the ocean, that is, the ability to fight effectively (of course sparring helps tremendously)
BTW i know my grammar is horrendous