Title'ing Conundrum

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by StuartA, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    I was always under the assumption that a Master shouldnt refer to themselves as one, irrespective of grade.. but what about:

    a) when they sign a letter? (To someone else in TKD)
    b) their profile on social media (ie. facebook).. should they be using their first/surname or adding 'Master' in front?
    c) If using their first/surname should they feel vindicated to correct people who do not refer to them as 'sir' or 'master' etc.? (seen that a few times)
    d) What about those that disguise their titles in initials or accroyn's? ie. MS aka Master Smith?

    Thoughts?

    Just wondering is all.. as I dont know whats considered correct in this day and age of technology?

    Stuart
     
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I have to say, if I was talking to someone and they insisted I refer to them as 'master' I'd probably break into hysterics, before writing them off as a loony, except in very specific contexts.

    Now if it's an official title (e.g. sir, lady, doctor, etc.) then that's a different matter, but unless it's a formally recognised title in that sense I think it should be kept well away from any social media - to avoid ridicule if nothing else.

    Edit: To summarise/clarify:

    - in class, fine
    - outside of class with students, maybe
    - with anyone other than students, nope
     
  3. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Well in CMA it is proper when writing a letter, on Facebook, etc. to refer to yourself as Sifu (name here). In the Chinese community if people know you are a sifu they will refer to you as such. Outside of the school and outside of the Chinese community it is not expected.

    Personally I always thought that using the term "master" sounded kind of hokey. Before people starters using that term we had a term in English for martial arts instructors. The word was and is coach.

    Now if you take someone who is a coach people may refer to them as such instead of by their name the same way as someone in the Chinese community would with a sifu. They can sign things as Coach (name here), and use it on Facebook.

    Again master just sounds hokey and I feel like people are hesitant to call people "master" because of the numerous other implications of that word.
     
  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Good points folks.. but Coach and Sifu mean simply teacher... thats not too bad, as its not really asserting yourself as a 'higher' authority.. a bit like calling myself 'sabum'.. its not me saying i`m better, just a term to refer to what I do (teacher/instructor).. not that I use it.

    Other titles seems to be used to ascertain a higher position than others and whilst i recognise we all see people as Masters, that is for us to decide I feel and though many arts give 'titles' at certain rank.. whats the feelings on those using these 'higher' titles, as, like others have said, it all seems a bit precotious to me.. but perhaps its the right way.. I do not know!
     
  5. Caleb Demarais

    Caleb Demarais Valued Member

    It works for Master Ken.
     
  6. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    But arguably in that case I should refer to myself as 'Admin'. After all, it's my vocation and describes what I do in daily life (at least for a sizeable portion of each day). Or I could go with the part time job I help out with, and call myself 'barman'.

    I just can't see it being sensible, even a little bit, for someone to call themselves by any title on facebook or social networking, other than perhaps those which you'd put down on a legal form.

    The way I think about it is really quite simple - would I introduce myself to a stranger with that title, and if I did would I expect them to understand it. If either or both of those are a no, then it's best not to use it.

    I'm sure there are people out there who would see it as being the right way for everyone to give them their 'title' of master, but I think most would actually be embarrassed if people called them master (or equivalent title) in the supermarket.
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo


    Good question.

    Of course, in Korea, then you title would be attached to your name in most cases. If you are a professional martial arts instructor, you would be Stuart Kwan Jang (Nim). Since we're not in Korea, that changes a bit, I'd guess.

    Even in Korea, a Kwan Jang can call himself "Kwan Jang" but they need to leave the -Nim off (that's one of my pet peeves - when people refer to themselves with the -nim)

    For me, I use "Master Morrison" when answering e-mails or inquiries about our martial arts program. I do this mainly so people know what my title/responsibility is regarding the class and business. In class, I am called "Master Morrison" as respect to the position I have earned. When others introduce me to new students, they usually introduce me by my title. All of this is within the context of the martial arts and my role as instructor.

    When I introduce myself or see students outside of class, I am "Thomas" (or Mr. Morrison to the younger kids). If I want to reference my "title" without calling myself "Master Morrison" (which I think sounds pretentious from my own mouth), I may introduce myself as "Thomas Morrison, Master Instructor".

    As a practitioner of KMA, I like to keep the tradition because it also honors those before me (who are senior) and sets an example for those junior but at the same time I don't want it to overshadow the real reason we are here.

    If it's in the context of the martial arts, like answering a question or giving information, I will use "Master Morrison" or "Thomas Morrison, Master Instructor" - it's my title and position within the school and therefore applicable.
    On a "school" page if it pertains to the class or art, yes. For example, if I post a group shot of students (maybe so students can download it) and I label the people in it, I will add titles. If I am answering questions on the site "acting bas a representative of the school", yes. Otherwise, if it's just comments or updates, no.
    Bwa ha ha ha ha - doing this online is even sillier than in person. In the context of a class (in person in the dojang), I might remind a student to refer to another instructor as "Master" but to remind someone in an internet chat is silly.
    I think this is lame. Either embrace it openly or don;t use it. In context of your professional duties, use it. Otherwise, don't.
     
  8. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Anything 'higher' than a term simply meaning teacher is context dependent. For example my Sifu I refer to as Sifu. I refer to Moy Yat as Sigung but his students would refer to him as sifu.
    Although I notice in JMAs this isn't quite the same. Ando Tsuneo is a Shihan and when doing demos they refer to him Ando Tsuneo Shihan but in conversation is referred to as Ando sensei even though he's my teacher's teacher. Or Ueshiba could be referred to as o-sensei (context dependent on being and aikidoka) or as Ueshiba Sensei.

    As far as introduction in casual conversation in CMAs and JMAs it seems pretty common to introduce people in non MA contexts as (name) sifu or (name) sensei.


    And again I think the term Master is a joke.
     
  9. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    I don't have the negative connotations with the word master that some do (particularly Americans I'd imagine), so to me it's just an earned title. I'd have no issue with calling someone a Reverand or Doctor, generally a Master level martial artist has studied mentally and physically (with blood, sweat and tears) for longer than those people so why not use the title that they have earned?

    I don't use my title in my everyday life (except for joking with my wife "I'm the Master of the household" or my son "We're both Master Jeffries"), but if it's within a Taekwondo context or to do with my Taekwondo clubs then I'll use it. I'll introduce myself to adults as Andy, to children students as Master Jeffries and if they aren't my student then I'll let their instructor introduce me.

    In a Taekwondo context or relating to Taekwondo I would type Master Jeffries, but if I knew the person or I know them to be a fellow master I would sign the letter above the typing as Andy.

    I think this is weird. However, I can imagine it being OK if your social media profile is only used for Taekwondo and you have students (who refer to you as Master X) connected.

    My children students all refer to me as Master Jeffries (as they are used to it from school, all the teachers are Ms/Mr X). I will correct them if they call me by my first name. Likewise I refer to my assistant instructors in front of them as Mr/Ms X (and will be Master X when they reach that grade). I like keeping this air of formality with children (having two childrens club, one I started that uses the title and one I inherited that doesn't - I notice the difference between the two).

    Also, I want them to be used to it as my Grandmaster is older and I believe prefers it when students use the title and last name (I've known him for 26 years and never used his first name), I want it to be natural for the students for the odd occasion when he visits.

    Adult students all call me Andy.

    I'm not a great fan of it, wouldn't do it, but it doesn't offend me.

    While we're on the topic, at the recent World Taekwondo Leaders Forum I attended in Korea there was only one guy who introduced himself as "Master Billy" (name changed). It was generally frowned on by the guys I was with when he introduced himself (from four different countries). All the invited guests were master-level (they sometimes brought a senior student that wasn't, but the Kukkiwon invitations where all masters) so to introduce yourself with a title to peers was weird.

    On the other hand I met the head of my kwan while in Korea and he was introduced to me as "Kim, Joong-Young - head of Changmookwan" rather than "Great Grandmaster Kim, Joong-Young". I of course added kwanjangnim to his surname when referring to him, but he wasn't introduced that way nor asked for it.
     
  10. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    The phrase 'fencing master' has quite a long history in the English language, although I've never heard it used in context of unarmed arts outwith eastern MA's. Otherwise though I do kind of agree with you, I'd be very reluctant to use the phrase 'master' when addressing someone, and if they were to correct me/insist on it would probably laugh myself silly.
     
  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    one of the great thing about modern functional martial arts is this eastern formality nonsense is eliminated.
     
  12. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    One of the great things about traditional eastern martial arts is that the interesting and respectful formality and customs are retained.
     
  13. stuckTKD

    stuckTKD Valued Member

    My master has trained almost 30 years night and day, it used to be "Mr" or "sir" but now it is "Master" and as mentioned he has earned it, to be honest it is a privilege to have a Master instructing you nowadays so calling him Master does not bother me one bit. After all he does call me "Mr" as I am at Black Belt level so the respect works both ways.
     
  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    well i'm glad that you're fond of it and continue to retain those customs. it's all about doing what we like, no?
     
  15. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    Absolutely!! The world of martial arts is big enough to have something for everyone...
     
  16. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    "Master" is so cringeworthy in the west. Period.

    Shihan, kancho, renshi, etc etc fall under the same scary umbrella.

    If someone requires that tag, walk away.

    If someone deserves that tag, upto you. As long as they don't demand it. Respect is earned, not demanded.

    But that's just me.

    McMaster Shihan-anshu-soke of awesomeness III (twelvetieth degree stripey wotsit).

    (world sokeship council recognised founder of commuter-do and stupid-Jutsu)
     
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i dont call my lifting coach "master", even if he was coach to the chinese olympic lifting team and had mastered the biomechanics of teaching lifts. i'm sure as hell not calling my MA teacher "master".
    "mr name here" or "coach" work fine.

    thee are no masters of anything. only guides. because eventually all records and pinnacles are broken and raised.
    theres always someone better
     
  18. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Okay, I see that some feel, where warrented its okay and others feel its not okay in certain settings, but to those who dislike the term altogethor, what do you do at say a seminar?

    In TKD Master titles are awarded as a title at that grade ie. in ITF 7th Dan is termed 'Master', so how would you introduce a 7th Dan to someone else if you feel that the term should never be used, ever! Just wondering?

    Stuart
     
  19. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    What's the appropriate Korean word for a martial arts teacher? It's a Korean martial art so use the Korean term or use the English term which is Coach or just refer to them as teacher or instructor.

    Master, grandmaster, great grandmaster etc is just people puffing themselves up and trying to be grandiose. Kru, sensei, guru, sifu, coach they mean teacher or instructor. Master has entirely different meaning.
     
  20. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    The Korean term for a martial arts teacher is Sabum (sabum-nim if referring to someone else). However, this has a slightly different connotation in Korean. Sabum are hired by the school owner to teach people. They aren't the head of the school (therefore it's not that important a title). Most Master Instructors outside of Korea have their own schools/clubs. Kwanjang(-nim) is head of a school/club.

    I disagree with using the term Coach. To me Coach is an instructor/tweaker of sports people and teams. Martial arts are more than just a sport, they are a way of improving oneself. If you don't feel this way, then it may explain your position on the use of Master, but to me Taekwondo and all martial arts are more than just sport so Coach isn't appropriate.

    It is appropriate for example for a "National Taekwondo Coach" as they are purely working with Taekwondo athletes/practitioners on the sporting side, but most instructors aren't pure sport.

    Sensei - Sensei (先生?) is a Japanese word that is literally translated as "person born before another".[1] In general usage, it means "master" or "teacher",[2] and the word is used as a title to refer to or address teachers, professors, professionals such as lawyers, CPA and doctors, politicians, clergymen, and other figures of authority.[3] The word is also used to show respect to someone who has achieved a certain level of mastery in an art form or some other skill: accomplished puppeteers, novelists, musicians, and artists for example are addressed in this way.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensei

    Guru - Guru (Devanagari गुरु) is a Sanskrit term for "teacher" or "master", especially in Indian religions. The Hindu guru-shishya tradition is the oral tradition or religious doctrine transmitted from teacher to student. In the United States, the meaning of "guru" has been used to cover anyone who acquires followers, especially by exploiting their naiveté, due to the inflationary use of the term in new religious movements.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru

    Sifu - Sifu (Cantonese) or shīfu (Mandarin) is the identical pronunciation of two Chinese terms for a master: 師傅 and 師父. The character 師 means "teacher", while the meaning of 傅 is "tutor" and the meaning of 父 is "father". Both characters are read fu with the same tones in Cantonese and Mandarin, creating some ambiguity. A similar term often used in Chinese is 老師 (Cantonese lou5 si1, Mandarin lǎoshī), meaning "teacher". Though pronounced identically and bearing similar meanings, the two terms are distinct and usage is different. The former term (師傅) bears only the meaning of "master", and is used to express the speaker's general respect for the addressee's skills and experience. Thus, for example, a customer may address a motor mechanic as such. The latter term (師父) bears the dual meaning of "master" and "father", and thus connotes a linearity in a teacher-student relationship. As such, when addressing a tradesperson, it would only be used to address the speaker's own teacher or master. In the preceding example, the motor mechanic's apprentice would address his or her master as such, but the customer would not. On the other hand, a religious personality, and by extension, experts of Chinese martial arts, can be addressed as "master-father" (師父) in all contexts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sifu

    I know Wikipedia isn't the best of sources, but all definitions include a meaning of master.

    Master has an entirely different meaning to you! Maybe Master has a different connotation in America/Canada where slavery is much more in the public mindset. I think this is an emotional hang-up from north-americans, I don't know any european or asian that has an issue with the word/title master.

    When I communicate with people from Korea who are lower rank or junior to me, they all call me Master Andy, no matter how many times I try to tell them to stop (I'm not normally that formal). This isn't a title I've asked them to use, they know my rank and therefore use the term Master. They don't use the Korean term (although they know I speak a little Korean and would therefore know the term) and they don't call me coach.

    In England we sometimes still use the title Master for boy children below 16. We don't ever think "how can you call them a master, they haven't mastered anything" or "don't use master, it has such a bad connotation". It's just a word. Put aside the past meanings.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_(form_of_address)

    Wikipedia says it's almost died out, of course they are referring to American sources and their language is a bastardised form of English so what would they know ;-)
     

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