Throws in Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by tichdog, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. righty

    righty Valued Member

    What would you all call sweeps then? I've seen plenty of mighty fine ones in karate competition/kumite and I'd definitely classify those as throws.

    The trouble with a lot of throws is that they are facilitated heavily by grips. And I don't mean just gripping with the hands. As far as I am aware any sort of grappling or gripping is not allowed in competition, making a lot of throws a hell of a lot harder if not impossible. But that doesn't mean you can't train them.
     
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Depends on the ruleset of course. Some karate allows gripping and throws as Gary Enshin mentioned.

    Mitch
     
  3. tichdog

    tichdog Valued Member

    sorry but dont most wado stylists compete?if you compete it a sport yes there are throws in the kihons but practiced against karate tech eg snap reverse punch to pass your grading with someone who is complying for a bit of fun just try it when sparring or with someone who wont leave there arm there or stand waiting and just keeps coming forward
    bet it opens your eyes ps love wadoryu but nothings perfect
     
  4. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Your description sounds roughly right, but I'm not sure why you call it a "hip-drag".

    Mike
     
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I don't believe it's "darg" either. It should be "bounce" or "lift".
     
  6. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Again, best description off the top of my head. The way, I've seen it performed, you stick your hip in and use your upper body to pull (or "drag") the other person over it.
     
  7. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    I always thought it was called a hip toss?
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    We tend to call it a "trip" over the hip to emphasise that you don't take his weight onto your hip.(if done correctly/smoothly)
     
  9. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    Just checked mine. No where did I see "self defense," yet we practice throws and locks and such.
     

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  10. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Other Wado guy here, yes there are throws in Karate (Wado), after all the founder was a Jujitsu guy, right? There are certainly moves applied as throws from Kata- EG last move of Kushanku. But true, not much emphasis on throws in training, in my experience, and certainly nothing like the full on hip throws from Judo or the little experience of Aikido i have.
    P.S/ Tichdog post#43, no offence but could you sort your English out a bit, i found that post quite difficult to understand- punctuation etc. Apologies if English is not your first language (but not if you're just being lazy).
     
  11. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    What about KK #10 - not a Koshinage per-se, but still a head on throw (literally)

    And of course we've the odd Kotenage also.

    Me and AJ with a bit of Tantodori a couple of years ago.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sd8pBDvm1E"]YouTube- Wadoryu karate: tanto dori kote nage dori 和道流 空手 短刀捕り 小手投げ捕り[/ame]

    You're right to mention Otsuka's Jujutsu background of course, although I always have trouble trying to explain to people that there is Jujutsu (in the sporting sense from which Judo evolved) and there is Jujutsu in the Koryu Bujutsu sense. Wado Jujutsu is more relevant to the latter and as such is not so much of the close quarters type throwing (although I can think of a couple) as it is off balancing (kuzushi) and then managing your opponents to the fall to the ground.

    I remember one of my old instructor had a lovely way of putting "how to throw people" along the lines of - create a space and let you opponent fall into it.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  12. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Shiai (or competitive bought fighting) is important to most Wado stylist you are correct - as it forms an integral part of our conditioning as a karate-ka.

    However it is only a part of it - not the sum and I think that because its the easiest part to teach and learn (and arguably the more attractive to the layman) I believe it has become (in the uk anyway) pretty much entirely what a lot of Wado clubs have come to represent.

    For me I think if you want to fight as a Wadoka - you have to move away from the WKF style fighting and create your own way that incorporates wado principles (the same ones found in Wado kata, Kihon Kumite and Idori etc) and learn how to apply those in Shiai.

    Chances are the outcome would look entirely different (and probably wouldn’t go a long way toward impressing a WKF ref) but who cares. WKF styles comps are just that, and they are evolving into a completely deferent sphere of existence........... deep breaths Gary ..... deep breaths.......!!!

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  13. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, that's the 2nd part. The 1st part is you have to use your hip to "bounce" your opponent's feet off the ground 1st. This is a bit harder to do. Some people use the lift motion by holding their opponent's waist and change both legs from a bending position into a legs straight position. This way your opponent's feet will also be lifted off the ground. This is why some people prefer to call this move as "waist lift" instead of "hip throw". After your opponent's feet are off the ground, you then use your upper body to pull your opponent over as you have described.

    That's a very high level skill, your timing has to be perfect. Sometime when you move in, your opponent will "sink down". It will be hard to use 45 degree upward "bounce" move. Instead you have to use upward "lift" move in order to get your opponent's feet off the ground.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    We tend to use koshi nage (waist/hip throw) as techniques of opportunity rather than "setting them up". If someone were to lean their body weight we would go under to a leg take down.

    Below (not the technique discussed) the hip "digging through" to prevent his weight falling on to me.Perhaps you can see what I ment by "tripping." His momentum would have been in the direction he is thrown (opportunity). Even though as you say it is an advanced technique.
     

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  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I agree that if your opponent sink down, there are other throws better to use other than the hip throw. Only use hip throw when the opportunity is there will be the best situation. We all want to achieve "use the minimum effort to achieve the maximum result." Sometime our opponent is just too strong and we may not be able to find that opportunity no matter how long that we wait. This is why I prefer to "create oppontunity - setting them up" than "wait for opportunity".
     
  16. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Perhaps this is where the “atemi” side of Karate's punching and kicking can create such opportunities?

    Gary
     
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Here is a clearer view. The intial lock on the elbow was ineffective due to his height and he resisted "setting up" the koshi nage. I had no intention of attempting to set up the koshi nage myself .

    Gary
    Myself I MUCH prefare a good pragmatic strike to stop counters or resistance. Could not agree more.P3 shows the strike that would preceed the lock shown in 1/2. EVERY lock throw or pin should be preceeded by a strike.
     

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  18. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Or possibly create other openings that weren't there before?

    [edit] as a strike is as good a form of Kuzushi as any.

    Gary
     
  19. Gary - Enshin

    Gary - Enshin Valued Member

    I don't really care how classic the throw is, I incorporate anything (within the rules) in dojo fighting. I was even teaching the classic cross-buttock throw from prize-fighting the other day. No doubt it has a Japanese name but that's hardly the issue.

    IMO throwing is most effective once you have unbalanced the opponent with a heavy strike. It is of course much harder if you are relying on catching someone dancing around without doubling them up first. I can see how that might put people off trying them in non-contact sparring.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  20. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I wish more guys like you two had taken up aikido then maybe there wouldn't be so many aiki bunnies.
     

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