Throwing Arts and the Nasty 'Nutcracker'

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Kuniku, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    Hi all!

    Debated putting this in the Jujitsu or Judo forum, but its a slightly more generic throwing art discussion/question.

    Something I've noticed with jujitsu over the years I've been training it, is that on occassion you suffer what I call the Nutcracker effect - where as you land and breakfall your legs 'clap' together with your gentleman vegetables in the gap that is no more.

    As I'm sure you can imagine (if this hasn't happened to you) this is very painful, and on occassion can affect your training for the rest of the night.

    I had found that with a certain training partner I train with this was happening frequently, I put it down to him being bigger than me (because it never happened with smaller partners), and to an extent avoided training with him. As time went on he has now become my training partner for our Shodan grading (being the only two brown belts).

    Having asked Sensei for advice, I started wearing more restrictive undies when trianing to lift and support the gentleman vegetables away from the 'clapping' effect of my legs. This seemed to work for a while, but as we've progressed with our shodan training our techniques have developed to suit throwing each other regularly etc, and his seems to have changed somewhat and for the last 3 weeks I've been suffering Nutcrackers every training session.

    Can any more experienced Throwing types out there suggest a sollution to my painful problem?
     
  2. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    If you've been thrown over your right shoulder the bottom of your left foot should be landing flat on the mat with your legs apart, observe this fellow, practise it by rolling on your own:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2d14cWPKPw"]UKEMI; JUDO Forward Roll Side Breakfall - YouTube[/ame]

    If he's throwing you with such rotation that you're going all the way towards your front then the bottom or side of your left foot should be hitting the mat with your legs apart while you prevent face vs. floor with your forearms.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Comedy value of this thread aside have you tried changing your leg position?
    Maybe you need to put one back and the other slightly more forward?

    That was the serious suggestion...now for sillies..

    Arab strap?
    Castration?
    Prince Albert?
     
  4. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    The problem, I think is that because he's bigger than me I'm 'air bound' for a long time. For example with a hip throw, I go up over and then down, and I'ev got very little control over my legs during the motion, my left hits the floor and then my right comes crashing down seconds afterwards. Where as most other people throwing me its a very fast motion straight down and its fine. (if that makes sense?)

    I might try and control my legs more in the air, or at least on landing I'd imagine I've got enough time to move the left leg away one way or another before the other comes crashing down.

    My worry is that I'm starting to instinctively try to avoid the pain, last night my body was twisting trying to land on my back rather than my side, which I imagine will result in a back injury before long =/
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Maybe get this guy to solidly drill one throw so you know what's coming and can try different ways of falling?
    I really think that if it's a side fall then the opposite foot should be landing foot down and knee up (as in the vid) and thus avoiding a gentlemen veg mash up.
    Then let him drill 10 minutes of something he wants to work on.
    If you are becoming wary of being thrown it won't be helping him or you.
     
  6. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    I think generally I currently keep little control over my legs, I usually end up pretty doing the splits as he takes me over his hip, on thursday's training session I'll try and arrange doing what you said and get sensei to watch, I really don't want jujitsu to affect my baby making skills lol.

    And I'm aware its not helping either of us, which is why I'm trying to sort it out, learning the shodan syllabus is hard enough as it is without us making it harder for ourselves lol. I'm preparing a list of throws that he's not quite doing right and are ending up more painful and dangerous than they should be (some throws i'm landing head first rather than on my shoulders/back) , which again will start affecting how I subconciously react to them as well - again possibly making things harder as we progress to our december grading target.
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Doing throws really makes you realise that the Japanese were really onto something with the tori/uke realtionship and how it's not all about resisting and going hard.
    Nothing worse than being thrown by someone you don't trust or throwing someone that isn't able to land when thrown (not saying you are either of these things!).
     
  8. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    For a while I did find I was resisting his throws, because I didn't like being thrown by him (because of the nutcracker thing) I've gotten a lot better at this because of some other training where we spent a whole session on being a good uke and how to make tori look better.

    The nutcracker is more a problem with my breakfalls I think, because of his size I need to try and keep my legs under control.

    Some of his throws are another matter, in particular recently some of his 'winding' style throws:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlD45fZ2iCs"]Outside Winding Throw - YouTube[/ame]

    he does with more brute force than using his body weight to drag them over. so in effect he does the throw without dropping his weight and then as I'm already going over his hip he drops to his knee, which results in my being piledriven head first into the mat, very painful and very dangerous (IMO), its the same for the outer and inner winding throws and his [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r0MBhIHruI"]head hip and knee[/ame]. Don't get me wrong, the throws are great, just in a friendly training environment I'm worried he'll be lacking a training partner for a while as I recover from a broken neck...
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Maybe you are...you know...packing a marrow and two large spuds rather than a baby carrot and a couple of sprouts?
    Might not be anything wrong with your breakfalling at all. :)
     
  10. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    that goes without saying ;)
     
  11. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    ^ I have that fear with people who are a lot heavier and stronger doing Drop Seoi Nage, shoulders hit the mat with such force there really is no breakfall. Last Thursday I had a blackbelt throw me with Uchi Mata and I landed clean on my back, also no breakfall as it was with a lot of force to get the throw to work. I couldn't do that all night. There's a Jui Jutsu class in after us on Thursdays and they make a tremendous racket that i can hear from the changing rooms
     
  12. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Compression shorts would help as they hold your manly bits and stop them going where you don't want them.

    Something like these, with or without the cup:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    generally i'm fine hitting the floor at speed, there is a few throws we do that don't allow for breakfalls because both arms are held during the throw etc - although often for niceties sake we let the uke free their arm for the throw to dot he breakfall. all these are generally fine, its just my neck and gentleman vegetables I'm ever concerned about.

    We had a Brilliant mishap last thursday doing a defense against a spinning back kick, both the tori and sensei thought i'd done the technique before which I hadn't, didn't have a clue what was going on, all the previous techniques had either been fairly straight forward, but definitely wasn't prepared for tori to do the sweep so i fell face first, came at me full pelt and because i wasn't expecting it didn't even think to use my arms/hands to do a forward falling breakfall, instead I used the time tested left temple breakfall, my head was spinning for 3 days lol
     
  14. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    rather than fork out for those at my sensei's suggestion (mentioned earlier) for something similar I just started wearing y-fronts to training, which do largely the same thing. for the grading itself i'm definitely wearing my cup to save inevitible pain. but I dont have enough cups and cup holders to wear them all the time at training. unfortunately even with my gentleman vegetables being lifted and packaged up nicely by the tighty whities it just seems to be a more compact target for my pillar like thighs to crush >__<
     
  15. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I assume you've spoken to the guy and ask him to ease up a bit? There's little-to-no point hammering a compliant uke with maximum force all the time and, as you point out, he'll be without a training partner if he breaks you.
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Try to bend your legs in different degrees so your knees won't hit each other. Usually the upper leg knee is closer to your chest than your lower leg knee. If the throwing is too hard, you should ask your opponent not to release his grips. He should give you a bit of "pulling" when your body is landing on the ground. This will also prevent your head from hitting on the ground.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
  17. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    Yeh I've made points about a lot of the techniques, I do think I'll need to raise the point more seriously soon though, as often he just pats me on the back and tells me to man up...

    The worrying thing is that a lot of the techniques he's not doing 'hard and fast' its just due to his size the way he does the techniques is what makes them dangerous. but because sensei is still off the mat following a recent double pneumonia issue he can't show us what needs to change, and me describing it doesn't seem to help. I've said if its not sorted out soon then we'll have to stop doing said techniques until sensei is back on the mat to demonstrate the correct technique.
     
  18. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    We call it thunderclap :)

    I find putting tension in the "top" leg works for me
     
  19. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    can you describe what you mean by putting tension in the leg?
     
  20. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    It has to do a lot with bad breakfall technique.

    The bottom leg should stay straight (ish), but the other leg should be bent so that the bottom of the foot is in contact with the floor. Not only does this significantly reduce impact with the floor, but you also prevent the nutcracker.

    You can't pin this on your partner. No matter how hard or soft he throws, it is your reponsibility to make sure you don't get a nutcracker. You should train this regardless how hard you are thrown. Because that way you'll be able to do this automatically no matter how hard someone is slamming you into the mat. Or the floor for that matter.

    Your breakfall success should not depend on how hard your partner is throwing you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013

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