Thoughts on Vunak remarks

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by windtalker, Feb 8, 2008.

  1. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    From what I've read in threads here on MAP before the Black Belt Magazine is not so popular with many. Leaving the subject of the magazine alone for now there was something in this month's issue about FMA in this article by Lito Angeles featuring Paul Vunak. Without reprinting or directly quoting I'd like to cover some of the context and learn what other FMA students think. Let the Flaming Begin!

    The efforts not to quote a little of the magazine have not proved succesfull despite several efforts to edit this post. Anyway the cover reads that Paul Vunak will be teaching the only weapon tech. a person would ever need. The article title reads that Defanging the Snake is what Paul is teaching and is the most effective tech. in the FMA.

    What the article begins with is the reason Paul feels that stick training is still viable in the modern world. And how weapon training increases hand speed. Next comes an explination of different FMA weapons and how each is usefull for modern application.

    The first part of the article I was most intrested with is Paul explaining why the Defanging the Snake is the single tech. recommended for whatever the "Average Martial Artist" means. Naturally there is elaboration on what part of the opponent is the best target.

    Later in the article Paul complains about modern efforts to convert FMA to a sport by using protective gear and the responses are no longer realistic. Now here is what I found most interesting of everything read. For Paul compares the Rattan stick with a toy. Kind of difficult to elaborate without directly quoting. The idea here is using protective gear and Rattan sticks is like a sport. Which is the oppostite from how the FMA train.

    The article continues with a clear bias from Paul toward a hardwood stick. Later there is some talk about the dangers of Knives and Guns. Finished up by the art of biting. From this basic description would you agree with any of what had been remarked? The issue being refered to is the April 2008.
     
  2. oosh

    oosh Valued Member

    "the art of biting" :rolleyes:

    equipment:

    lechon
    mouth


    KINO MUTAI !!!!!!!!! :D
     
  3. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    You need to train more!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2008
  4. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    BWAHAHAHAHA
     
  5. oosh

    oosh Valued Member

  6. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    FMA traditionalist believe that sport fighting with protective gear takes away from the historical part of FMA. They believe the defensive skills are sacrificed beacuse there is no real damage done and therefore sport FMA has become more reckless.

    I just read this book which talked about this issue and much more on the origins and questionable things concerning FMA. Our own Mr Pat O'Malley is mentioned in it :)

    the book is " Arnis: Reflections of the History and Development of the Filiopino Martial Arts" By Mark V Wiley
     
  7. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Well the art of biting, Mmmm! I will leave that alone hahaha. What happens if your 90 and you have no teeth???

    It is ok to say better a hard wood stick and not protective gear, but protective gear can give you the oppertunity to train more realistically in a safer envirnoment. Using no gear and hardwood sticks means you WILL pull your shots which in turn will also mean you may not be training realistically.

    As for trying to imply that rattan is a toy??? I know full well you can take a person out with one good shot from a rattan cane, well we have one guy who has done it with a plastic flute eh 'D' hahaha.

    I am sure he has his opinions but I can only base my opinionon what our poster has said, I would rather have the direct quotes fro the article before jumping to any conclusions.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  8. pauli

    pauli mr guillotine

    y'ever been around a teething infant?
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Yes of course, my kids went through teething too, but what if you have no teeth and your not teething.

    We can all bite, but no offence the Kino Mutai thing is not FMA but rather a made up marketing tool. Look up the real translation of the term Kino Mutai? Hahaha roughly translated it means two women gropeing each others chest, whilst pulling each others hair and screwing each others face up. Which is not a bad thing from a certain point of veiw:)

    As I said I would rather leave that one be for the moment.;)

    But to imply that the use of rattan in training ( a traditionally used material in FMA for generations ) and the use of prtection in sparring detracts from the reality in your training but at the same time endorse the use of hardwood sticks and no protection to be more realistic based is a very narrow point of veiw. As I said, if you only use hardwood sticks and no protection to spar in your training you will PULL your shots, for if you did not you will seriously injure if not kill your training partner. The same is true if you sparred with rattan sticks full contact with no protection, you will seriously injure if not kill your training partner. The use of protective equipment has revolutionised the FMA in that we can no spar more realistically in an environment that limits the risk of serious injury, this in turn can enhance your practical expeariance of real time and real contact sparring.

    But still I would rather have the direct quotes from the article before jumping to any conclusions as after all we at the moment I can only base my conclusions on the posters interpritation of the article and this could mean we may well be taking a phrase or comment out of context.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2008
  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Yes you are correct, sport fighting with equipment can take away from the historical and practical aspects of the art as a whole, after all it is by it's very nature a sport loosly based on the art as a whole, but to use protective equipment in a non sporting sparring session is not only practicle but sensible too and I think that is the point.

    But also bear in mind, the sporting aspect of the art can and does enhance certain attributes of your training as a whole, as long as your realise the sport has it's limitations but is a great training tool.

    It is a bit like the flow drills of the FMA, they train certain attributes but you would not use them as you train them in a real encounter. But they do enhance certain skills, and sparring with protective gear and even the sporting versions of FMA can if used correctly enhance your skills far better than using no gear and pulling your shots.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  11. RAB

    RAB Valued Member

    Tell how it enhance certain attributes? How does protective gear make one far better than using no gear and pulling your shots? I was never trained to pull shots or not to pull shots. In the beginning I was taught to "place" my shots. What I mean by "placing" shots, example, if their were a dime on a wall I would stab the dime with the tip of my stick. This excerise taught distance and accuarcy.

    It would be great if you could explain in further detail and it would support your arguement.
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    First of all lets make it clear. This is a discusion, not an arguement.

    But to explain further. Accuracy training is one thing, I am sure we all have our own methods of training this attribute. You have your dime and I hit the tip of my training partners stick but this is no substitute for full contact free sparring a live resistant opponant who is also trying to evade your shots and hit you as hard as they can and if you do this with hardwood sticks such as Kamagong or Bahi and no protection someone is going to get at best seriously injured or at worst killed.

    Are you willing to do this to your training partner just to enhance this attribute?

    Put it this way, how good do you think you would get at Muay Thai, MMA or Boxing without actualy sparring at getting used to being hit in real time. You may be technicaly good on the mat but what happens to you when you actualy get hit for real? You need a method to train this attribute in a safe environment to ensure you are well enough to apply it for real when the need arises.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Lets put it another way.

    When you train the blade portion of your FMA do you use only live blade and react to you training partners movements in real time? If so how many have you seriously injured and killed during training? For if we use this same train of thought this is how we should be training our blade skills is it not?

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  14. Damien Alexander

    Damien Alexander New Member

    "We're going to take this HUGE shinning white light of knowledge
    and shoot it like a laser beam right into your bra........"

    oh,wait.
    that was a different Vunak experience.
    :woo:


    GO VUNAK!
    the most rythmically challenged white man in FMA!

    :p
     
  15. february

    february Valued Member

    I don't see (and I'm echoing Pat's sentiments here) how getting your head smashed in with an Ironwood stick is going to benefit you or your training partner. At the very least you can say bye-bye to training for a few months....at worst, you'll probably never be training again.

    I have the feeling (I haven't yet read the article though) that all these years of "reality" based training may have screwed with the Vu's head a little. We all knew he was only just about the right side of sane to start with, after watching his Enigma clips on Youtube, I'd say he's starting to lose it..... :D
     
  16. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Also by "placing" a shot on your training partner you are in effect pulling your shot. This is a good way to train the majority of the time but, there comes a time in your training where you will need to spar what you have learnt under pressure in real time using real force if only to see if you can get it to actually work.

    How many of you are willing to do this using hardwood sticks and no protection and more importantly are your training partners willing to do the same.

    The protective equipment you can use today can help to develop certain attribute that would otherwise only be able to be learnt in a real encounter, so why dismiss it simply because it was not available 30 years ago.

    Thank goodness for inovation and progression which if you look at it is the core to FMA as a whole anyway.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  17. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    I have to seriously doubt that Vunak has gone Full Contact with Hard Wood sticks with no body armor very often or more than once. If he has then he probably went with a less skilled person. :cool: Even then something most have been broken on someone. :cool: I know that if I sparred with Kamagong in an alive full contact manner then something is being broken on someone.

    Rattan with Fencing masks and elbow/knee protection is grea for nice realistic training. If you want a little more padding because you need to stay less banged up then WEKAF HeadGear and Body Armor is the next step down.
    Finally if you are just starting out then Headgear and soft sticks like ActionFlex, etc. is a good way to go to build confidence.

    I have seen most of Vunak's DVD's from back in the day and they were always working with rattan.
     
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And if nothing got broken on either side then they must have pulled their shots which in turn means they are not training realistically.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  19. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    As I have said I have not had the chance to read the article, but from reading our posters breakdown of the article, it is being suggested that it is more 'Traditional' in FMA to train using hardwood sticks????

    My question is this: According to who?

    Hardwood has been used and still is used but I think you will find that the most used tool in FMA has for a long, long time been Rattan, and Rattan has been used to great effect in real encounters by the old Masters, so how can rattan be considered a toy???

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    OK lets take a look at the original post, I can only comment on what has been put here realy as I probably will not get to see the article unless it is printed on the Web as Black Belt Magazine is not easy to come by here in the UK.

    Good advertising for the magazine which all Magazines tend to use, you know, The Best in the World, Only thing needed, the ultimate this and that, that is what Magazines do and they use these terms to, well... Sell magazines, so no surprises there.

    This is OK in principle but not nessisarily true to every encounter. It is easy to say all you have to do is hit them on the hand and it will all be over, but first you got to hit them on the hand and what happens if you miss. So yes I agree in principle but it is not the be all and end all and many other aspects to a confrontation have to be taken into consideration.

    I agree I feel FMA (not just the stick portion) is totally viable in learning how to deal with confrontation in the Modern Society.

    True, it also increases awareness.

    I would be interested to hear more.

    I would not say single technique, but yes it is a good start.

    Please elaborate.

    Please again, elaborate and quote, this way we can actually see what he said before giving a better opinion on whether anyone agrees or not.

    Well I think I covered my point of veiw on this, but surely the sporting aspect of FMA is still in principle (even if only in a small way) FMA, and what is the opposite to FMA???

    If this is his preferance then he would have a bias, but one man's bias does not mean that it is this way right across the board.

    And I am sure we all agree they are dangerous in the wrong hands.

    Mmmm!

    Some I may agree with and some I will not, but that is why the FMA is so diverse. If we all agreed it was the same we would all be doing the same style, the same way and then it would no longer be FMA.

    Best regards

    Pat
     

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