I think a lot of this thread ties in very nicely with the one on kata.......Why are folks doing MMA? the answer is they are sick of the rubbish that they get shown by some tradtional martial arts...and that in many ways comes back to a disconnect from good sources of martial art. The Chinese have practised martial arts for thousands of years, much of it in secret laboratories called "temples".....and they did it 24/7......and this also happened in Japan. So it is my firm belief that they developed incredible insights and could probably do stuff that "Looks Mystical "...............this is the stuff that was lost, and just occaisionally we can come across some really clever stuff. I learned some Dumog just recently, and with relatively simple moves I can throw a person across a room...my 13 year old did just that to me and I am 15 1/2 stone ...mix that with a bitch slap and you have the ultimate display of "Chi" power. There is a book called "Zen and the art of archery" the author a German visited Japan in the 30's to learn archery, but he couldn't even draw the bow, whereas his tiny Sensei was pulling the huge bow with no problem..one of his fellow students confided in him that it was all in the "Breath"...........and after a time he was able to pull the bow by concentrating on this.......but how would that appear to ordinary folks, very often a martial style will concentrate on just one aspect and go very deep into that aspect.so deep in fact that a casual observer will not realise that they are witnessing real skill and think it is just some hocum........I have seen some truly remarkable martial artists in my time.most of them unknown to the world.......You won't run into them all the time but they are out there.
Many of these ppl including Huang do have skills but they also appear to have a liking for theatricals. You never see Chen Yu, Chen Xiao Wang etc.. do any of this stuff - you saying they are low level / unskilled? And of course the obvious - fight someone skilled, not a student not same school. Don't make up conspiracy theories for them.
Please allow me to clarify. I'm not knocking the fellow in that video. His level is obviously very very high, and I've nothing but respect for the man and aspire to be like him at some point. I'm poking fun at the attitude that necessitates the slander of other practitioners skill levels. The comment was totally unnecessary and borders on disrespect in my opinion. Additionally, I am of your mind Koyo. I have nothing but respect for the traditional guys who train hard and gain an appreciable amount of skill in their art. I've used both traditional arts and sporting arts to grow as a fighter and I have love and respect for traditional artists and sporting artists. I see no reason to denigrate another persons level or art.
I agree with this 100% but the video of Huang is of him demonstrating push hands. It is a controlled environment where rules do exist and the players test themselves within those set of rules. I'm not for one moment suggesting that this is anything other than this. Would Huang fighting for real look like this? No. Does that mean he can't fight? No. Does push hands teach skills that are applicable in a real fight? Yes. The public demonstration is not what makes me believe it. It is my personal experience of Huang's students who have a remarkable level of skill. My experience of being thrown in similar ways when I first met my teacher when I had no expectation that I could be thrown that way. In fact quite the opposite. I had no reason to think he would be any different to the many teachers I had already met who could do nothing like this. And why do people insist on using terms like "magic powers" and "the force" when talking about videos like this? Doing so is not going to make this a debate about whether such things exist. We seem to agree that such things do not exist so why keep suggesting that this must be what I believe. I have repeatedly stated that this is about skill and physics so can we please move on from this particular straw man? You think I haven't asked myself whether this all might be a load of b*****ks? Of course I have. You think I haven't asked myself whether all notions of spirituality are misguided nonsense? The thing is FQ that despite all that, I do what I do. Now I don't claim to have answered those questions absolutely. I have plenty of doubt. Maybe when I have really answered them I will think like you, I doubt it, but I am genuinely open to the possibility. Your questions are good ones and I ask myself whether I believe this because I want to on a fairly regular basis. And I ask that question hard. But by the same token what I see when a video of Huang is posted here is loads of people falling over themselves to declare what a load of old guff it is and to demonstrate how they haven't been taken in. And what I wonder is, why are they so desperate to believe that this is not possible? Do they also question whether they have attachments that motivate them to cling to their belief. Why are they greedy to disbelieve?
You expect experienced Taiji players to resist? There is a huge difference between being non-complient and resisting. In fact resisting Huang with muscular force would give him even more advantage.
Just lost a post.............DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAam.check this out for some cool Tai-Chi [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfvvn-yOLvA&mode=related&search="]Power Out In Circles - YouTube[/ame]
Hi Yohan I shared my dojo in the Royal Marine Commando Barracks with Vadim sambo/mixed martial arts teacher. My guys often crosstrained with him and he attended a seminar I held in a judo club. We are good friends. I have cross trained for years and am truly impatient of the attitude of some "traditionalist" to MMA. IT WAS/IS TRADITIONAL TO CROSS TRAIN. No need to clarify ANY of your posts to me. We ARE of the same mind. regards koyo
1.Uh,,,yeah.I have read a lot of books/articles,and talked w/various highly experienced practitioners.Maybe you should do the same.I've never met a high level student of Huang's,but as I said earlier,teacher awe often plays a role.Which is why I said it isn't deliberate. 2.Most people with an objective view of things will call when a teacher's amazing abilities are demonstrated only on their own students.Again, it's not that they lose. it's how they look when they lose.Huang could blast lots of folks without effort, but this brings us to.... 3.The point about comparing vids of the aforementioned practitioners is that as good as they were,even at an advanced age,the people they're up against,including people who weren't their students ,just don't fold like Huang's students do in that vid.They lose, sure.But none of them look like those students .Just look at Cheng toying with Tam and Ed.He rockets them around, but they don't just blithely fall.And Ma, who was considered perhaps to have the best push hands in the world-I see exquisite balance attacks,but when they fall,well, they just look different than those guys in the vid. 4.Yes,reasonable assessments all.What I've noted over the years is that when this matter comes up,CMC practitioners either-a)keep a polite silence-b)express a slight skepticism,or-c) say basically what I have. It's significant that (outside of Idiot Wu) to the best of my knowledge no one from Cheng's line has a bone to pick with Huang,he was recognized as Cheng's highest level pupil. I see no ulterior motives or lack of understanding of TC methods among these folks.So-if a practitioner from a branch of one's line had such superlative powers as seen here, wouldn't they all be waving banners of joy if they felt it was legit?Recognition from outside one's school weighs much more heavily than claims w/in one's school.(Example-no one-even those that recognized his greatness and didn't dislike him,consider Cheng to be YCF's greatest non-family member student.But people in the CMC line commonly claim this.As there's no outside confirmation,and a couple other names often arise in that regard, I make reasonable assessment that it ain't so.Could be wrong, but I have to opine based on the evidence at hand.And now I'm likely to be slagged by CMC practitioners for that statement). 5.I don't know whether he was more refined than Cheng or not.Not exactly sure what that means.CMC's TC is Yang with the outside influence from Chang,Ch'ing-ling.It basically uses the body the same as Yang style,some place a greater emphasis on yielding in the early stages of practice instead of emphsizing p'eng as much,and the push hands pattern is a flatter horizontal rather than a vertical circling.Everyone has their own particular emphasis, but at the heart they are doing the same thing,even tho' watching say, Ben Lo as compared to Wm. Chen as compared to Cheng as compared to etc will show their particular strengths. Could you, if it's not forbidden,speak of some of these key differences in approach?I'm really interested in the various emphases (sp?) among different TC instructors. Some here may have more certainty in their opinions due to their maybe having a touch more knowledge and experience.But that's what they're here for, to discuss opinions. Sorry not to have replied sooner-I have real problems most of the time getting here when at home,mostly just pop in for a moment at lunch now and then at work.
When i say resist i don't mean direct force v force. i mean it in the sense of one person attempting to nullify the other and apply back. What i see in that clip is the students coming in and giving Huang some force and then he responds and they simply go with whatever he does. I wouldn't accept your second statement as fact at all, it's rather debatable. Much like your past attempt to convince us that we can punch in taiji without using muscular tension or force....... What i'm refering to will give a much truer reflection of reality rather than martial fantasy, of which I offer an example of the kind of set up for pushing I'm refering to.. If Huang had pushed like this with his peers i think it would look much like this rather than what you see in the clip with his students. This is the backround from the page The clip (1 of 3) [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEeBTKdoeD0[/ame]
You know - why are you trying to make me believe this stuff? If you want to believe it - by all means... Well then good. You've found the real thing then. Good. Who knows? I'd have to see them to see if I thought they were really any good. Well, the other alternative would be that it is true Quan. It isn't, so that's that. There's no need for any complex argument. For each of us, we have that choice - the great yes, or the great no. Yes, I want to know what's really real. No, I don't want to know. For each of us, the choice is the right one for us. For you, never ever, will you get the real skill. Me - I have a slim chance. That's it - that's all. Nothing else either of us say has any bearing on it. The answer to that is simple - my Quan is already significantly superior to those people, despite me being humble and only intermediate level in the great scheme of things - and I'm not even the best kung fu brother from my school - so those top students, and you can listen to me, or not listen - or else go and sit in the dark and soothe themselves with tales of the greatness they will one day achieve. That's it.
God damn it - why always point to the oldest people in CMA as examples of what the art should look like? The old guys themselves don't do that - they don't don't point to other nintey year olds and say "Yes, that's how it should be done!" Is it just because we're lazy and want to think we can train as little as a nintey year old? Huang in that video couldn't stop a kid, never mind someone with muscular force. His ruined his own reputation for ever, and I only hope he was senile - that's the only way out for him.
Yeah because resisting means tensing your entire body against incoming force . . . Come on now. You know that there is such thing as appropriate resistance. No
You have to understand that no one is "desperate" to believe it's not possible. In fact, I could care less if it's possible or not. It won't change the fact that I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing - training hard and training smart in the art of my choosing, and even if it WAS possible, I wouldn't switch to Tai Chi to learn it, because the training isn't as much fun as MMA training, in my opinion. Additionally, what we are saying is NOT based in belief. It's based in fact. FACT: The dude in that video can't pull of those tricks against live opponents. FACT: His training partners are using negative resistance against him. While I don't know these facts to be true, I've seen the same hogwash this guy is presenting in many different arts. None of the proponents of these types of skills have EVER been able to pull them off in an objective environment, and they never will. Additionally, I bet Huang is to egotistical to even be tested. We aren't greedy to disbelieve, we are just looking at the facts. The basis of what we are saying comes from collective Martial Arts experience, the basic laws of physics and anatomy, etc . . . The claim is that this guy can actually perform this kind of feat in an objective environment. I think it's false, and will continue to think so until you can prove me wrong, which I doubt you can do. I really don't care what beliefs (and yes they are beliefs because there are no reasonable facts, or even evidence that supports them) you hold. You are more than welcome to keep them. However, consider this quote: "Know well, what holds you back, and what moves you forward."
Resistance to me should include strike sweeps and takedowns and best of all counters. The younger fellow in the last video is showing body alignment and kuzushi (points to unbalance) from a japanese perspective. Musubi is a principle that says the "instant" someone touches you he must be unbalanced. regards koyo
Dude, seriously lay off the magic mushies. Peddling this nonsense just makes you look really daft. These guys aren't fooling anyone anymore. The Bear.
