thoughts on this video (warning CHI)

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by airweaver, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Oh I see - so nothing to do with my post at all - curious that you quoted it in your post then.
    Perhaps you could remind me of my claims about the power of Qi, because as I recall I have made none, nor do I believe (as I have repeatedly stated) that Huang is using the power of Qi. It might be an idea to actually read what I have said and respond to that rather than the straw men that others have assigned to me. If you want to make this about Qi and me making claims for myself, feel free. But please don't delude yourself into thinking that that is anything to do with my actual position. Your arguing against what you want to believe I think, not anything I have actually said.
     
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Ha, yeah thats what I expected.

    The Bear.
     
  3. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Unfettered can you perform anything like what is going on in those videos? You've stated repeatedly that you've felt such effects and that people in your class all recognise such reactions as perfectly plausible... so can anyone in your class cause those kind of reactions are is nobody in your class that attuned to everyday physics? I ask this because if people in your class can demonstrate this kind of thing on a non-willing partner it seems that PB and probably a couple of others would be happy to visit your club to see for themselves. I don't think you should take it as a confrontational thing either more an offer to test the validity of both arguments in a straightforward manner.

    Also, while it is clear you have not used the word qi your understanding of 'physics' is about as mystical as qi.
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Or if it is not chi WHAT IS IT?
    Something must be causing the uke to act in such a manner.
    Again it is fault with the uke I find not with the art itself. At worst I feel that this is a delibarate misrepresentation of the abilities of the masters involved.


    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2008
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    So koyo.. you have never put on aikido demos that misrepresented your abilities against non willing partners ?

    I have seen myself a few demos with you in them, and let's be clear - you wouldn't look like that or perform the clean techniques you do on anyone but your co operating students right??

    Please don't take this as a slight on your abilities and experience as a martial artist - of which I have no doubt.

    Now I am not saying your ukes are responding exactly like Huangs - but it should be clear what is in Huangs clip isn't complient aikido training, but complient tai chi training - he's doing very different applications. Huangs clip is not a case of empty force training/ demo. He is clearly making contact. What we see is disproportionate effect. A cristicism that could be leveled fairly at any number of martial arts demonstrations..

    It is a simple case of the students non resistence and allowing the force to take them - they go with it. I know from experience what this is like and what it would look like.

    There is nothing wrong with it in a training context. None of us would learn a single damn technique if there was no element of co operation in our training. It has its place.

    i'm not defending this as an end product, let's be clear. It has a small place in tai chi. many might run with this - for whatever reason. There is a reluctance in schools, especially those that gravitate to the spiritual aspect, to get really physical with eachother. This obviosly lead to what i think are unrealistic views of martial arts - evidenced by unfettered's discussions with some of us here.

    Unfettered' if you disagree with my assessment, then I think the onus is on you to 'put up and shut up', so to speak. What i would suggest is you come to terms with and settle for a more practical and realistic assessment of what is going on in Huangs clip. Do you think your teacher could replicate what Huang does to those students on a bunch of us in free pushing, if not then your just digging a hole for yourself.. Or will it look something like the example I put up earlier in the thread of the competing teachers in China, a clip of which was also recently posted on a new thread by FQ. Or the 100's of other competative p/h clips floating around.

    respectfully.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2008
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIO6BX_b53k"]Makotokai Aikido Riai Iket 2005 - YouTube[/ame]

    Just looking at the first minute here Bill, your students are falling for you in an unrealistic manner. Is it not misrepresenting what you can do to a resisting opponent ?

    Can't the criticisms you are leveling at Huang be applied to you also. Anyway i don't want to labour the point, nuff said.
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Cloudhands

    The demonstrations you speak of are probably the iket which are specifically to demonstrate techniques, timing , striking and unbalancing and their relationship to swordwork. IKET international kendo embu and taikai. There are also demonstrations of counter techniques where mistakes are highlihgted and the technique countered .
    There may even be a demo of ara waza techniques which are closer to fighting. Also the ukes fall because the technique is effective never do they leap away as in the video posted.
    Basic principle in the makotokai is YOU DO NOT fall if you have not been unbalanced properly first.

    Where in the demo are there any bunny hop breakfalls. Falling from a light tap. Or any of the extreme reactions shown in the other videos?There is nothing there that cannot be explained rationally by basic physics.
    Yet again my criticysm is NOT of the art it is the ukes.



    regards koyo

    I think the first few seconds of the video shows proper body alignment, unbalancing and atemi at a pace where the audience may see them clearly..We are NOT attempting to impress anyone simply showing BASIC principles.I simply asked that they attack i did not sate what attack nor had any techniques in mind.It is a DEMONSTRATION of principles.Had they chosen to resist then it would have become a demonstration of henka waza alternate techniques which can be dangerous.Resistance is futile (to coin a phrase) any resistance is met by atemi. Best to counter a rechnique .

    Resisting opponets to me means a real fight. THAT would look quite different.

    Incedently ..the bear has visited my club on numerous occasions and we have found it mutually beneficial.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2008
  8. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    ....anyhow, let's have more Chi videos

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQK6ODxDfDY"]Oxfam - Be Humankind TV advert - YouTube[/ame]
     
  9. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Hmm

    A man who braggs about this kind of behaviour does not strike me as the non-confrontational type. So no, I won't be inviting him to my club.
     
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    See last line in post 267. Confrontational?no. Pragmatic? Yes.

    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2008
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    What Koyo calls mutually beneficial training on my last visit left me with a black eye, burst mouth and nose. If that's compliant training I REALLY don't want to feel the non-compliant.
    I can assure you makotokai training is some of the toughest you'll find. You really should come up sometime. Also you so come to Charlie's tai chi club.

    The Bear.
     
  12. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I'd love to bring my son up to Glasgow for a few training sessions with all you guys
    It's just it's so far away.:bang:
     
  13. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Unfettered, are you a taiji instructor?
     
  14. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    No
     
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Always welcome dad. At the moment I am getting ready for the "celebration" tonight. I shall have to answer questions such as "How many ways can you kill a man with a bus pass" or is a zimmer all that different from a three section staff?

    Should be fun.:cry:


    regards koyo
     
  16. slowwins

    slowwins Valued Member

    Many posters in this thread seem only to believe in the laws of physics, etc.. But where's your physics before you were born and where's physics after your death?

    Can someone who knows enlighten me on a Chinese proverb, something like "feng yue lai kong pi you ying".

    From Glasgow must be English and western and modern in thinking who believes in logic, science and evidence.

    If you deny qi, it is like you deny Christianity which is the very foundation of western culture and that of your forbears. In the new testament, there was a story of a woman who was a sinner suffering from some disease. She was thinking to herself that if only she could hold on to the the garment of Jesus, she would be healed and that she did. She pushed through the crowd and when near Jesus, she held on to the garment of Jesus. At that very moment, Jesus uttered "Who touch me. I feel the Power flow out of me". The "Power" is almost tangible to Jesus. It does not mean that just because very few people now can feel the "Power" imply it does not exist.

    Mencius was once asked what was his greatest gift and he mentioned the cultivation of the primordial qi and that ".. you cannot push it too hard nor should you not push".

    If I tell you I am the Buddha who is come, you dismiss me off(and walk away ?). If your brother tells you he is the Buddha who is come, you stop to think and it is rightly so as man has a need to rely on trust. We have to learn who to trust and who not to trust. Those who trust physics learned to trust the lecturers who taught them the methodology by which they finally trust nothing except physics.

    unfetterdmind seems to be too accommodating, trying to distance himself from qi and go along with the more acceptable law-of-physics reasoning but the jury is not out yet on a pronouncement on qi. Cheng Man Ching was a believer in qi "if the qi penetrates the bones, it's as hard as steel" and he was not a believer of qi that conforms to the law of physics. Even some "master" in Baqua mentions "dismiss this thing call qi". Just because most people have not felt "qi" is no reason to dismiss it. What if qi is the very criterion to differentiate a master from a novice. There may be many masters at the "novice" level after 50 years of Tai Chi but this is no proof that there is no "mystical" Tai Chi masters around, just they don't see you. Remember what Jesus says about casting pearls around aimlessly.
     
  17. lieqi fan

    lieqi fan Valued Member

    :yeleyes: (now then... form an orderly queue. You can have my place, I'm off down the pub)
     
  18. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Go back, read this again, and then tell me how retarded it sounds. Pretty retarded, because it is. Where was gravity before I was born? Well, Isaac Newton was pretty capable of discovering it around 200 years ago.

    Yeah, well, it's not a matter of believe. It's a matter of fact.

    So do you have a point? I got all the rambling . . . and that you don't like physics, or dismiss it or something. Do you buy into all this nonsense, the dumb staged vids, the guys falling down and throwing themselves around, and that Qi gives you magic powers??
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2008
  19. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Our survey says..... YES!!!
     
  20. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    How is this of any relevance?

    No...can you enlighten us or give an english translation?

    Not necessarily, just because someone lives in Glasgow it is a mistake to assume that they are Scottish western, modern etc,etc. They could be from any part of the world, be of any colour, creed or religion. Best to ask the poster who they are and not make wild assumptions, imo.

    Qi has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. This forum has debated this arguement before.
    Arrrrrrrhhhhh. See above. There is a seperate forum dealing with world religions.

    Good quote.


    See above.
     

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