Thoughts on Naihanchi

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Mitch, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    A post of Kuma's in the TKD section got me watching Naihanchi again, and I was struck by a section shon in the video here at 28 to 30 and again at 48 to 50 seconds. "Blocks" and sweep movements, although I have no idea what the normal bunkia is in karate circles.

    Would anyone care to share any thoughts on bunkai for this section? If you have anything on video that would be especially great :)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Y_Lpf985c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Y_Lpf985c[/ame]

    Mitch
     
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I've always used them as close quarter leg strikes, generally while my arms are otherwise engaged. Depending on the situation I either strike high with the knee on the raise (as shown by Funakoshi's posture in his demo of the move) or with the sole of the foot. I almost always trample down on whatever I can.

    In Karate Do Kyohan Funakoshi simply refers to the lift as 'raise the knee high' followed by 'trample step' (fumi-komi).

    A commonly taught application that could be used to fertilise fields is that the move is for avoiding a kick to the leg.
     
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i think the "typical" interpretation is evading a sweep, then blocking or attacking. gotta leave in a bit, so i'll just spam naihanchis from other styles

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk91kI_76jU"]YouTube- Matsubayashi Ryu - Naihanchi Shodan[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCpkV-zSP-0&feature=related"]YouTube- Naihanchi Sho Dan[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iNs5IsHqps&feature=related"]YouTube- Wong Karate Kata Naihanchi Shodan - Shorin-ryu Shin Shu Kan[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGk8e5ZlaFg&feature=related"]YouTube- ****oryu naihanchi shodan[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F60OwSRvdp8&feature=related"]YouTube- Naihanchi shodan - Kitae & Tameshiwari[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIxVmL9COgM&feature=related"]YouTube- Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Kushinkai Kata Naihanshi Shodan[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0HNmU2TGGg&feature=related"]YouTube- Naihanchi Kata and Bunkai - From the Mastering in Video Shinshinkan[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI5RHpInmA&feature=related"]YouTube- Bunkai Naihanchi Shodan Shorin-Ryu Shin Shu Kan[/ame]
     
  4. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    If you are talikng about the leg manouver, when performed in this kata its is more about being able to maintain naihanchi dachi after lifting the leg (in front of the thigh) and then placing it back down.

    Precursor to seishan.

    Gary
     
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Dug these up from my 2005 syllabus when I last taught Tekki Shodan:

    Tekki Shodan One

    A grabs B's right arm with a cross handed grab/caution.
    B steps to the right shifting his weight downwards, clamping A's right hand to his right forearm with his left hand and drawing his right arm down.
    B then goes through the following escalating violence strike routine, stopping where appropriate:
    Right knee strike, right back hand to A's right jaw/ear, right hand grab of A's hair/head with a left proprioceptive round elbow strike, a head restraint, a head twist.
    To be practised on both sides.


    Tekki Shodan Two

    A grabs B's lapels/shoulders with both hands with the intention of a knee strike.
    B simultaneously cross steps to the left while simultaneously striking over A's left arm with a right roundhouse elbow (targeting the left biceps or A's left temple). The side step is designed to drive the right knee into either A's supporting or kneeing leg (depending upon whether A is raising the left or right knee) – alternatively the side step can be used to kick SP6 or GB39.
    If B has struck the outside left leg:
    B is now on the outside of A who is tuned away from him. B strikes into A’s left thigh/ribs with a left knee strike and then as this retracts B strikes into A's left temple with a right Inside Receiver while holding onto A's left arm with his left hand. B then raises A's left arm with a left high retraction (bending A forwards) as he strikes with a right down sweep. To finish B grabs A by his neck with his right hand and pulls him back and up as he uppercut s into the base of his neck with his left fist.
    If B has struck the inside right leg:
    B is now on the inside of A who should be bent over towards him. B strikes into A's right temple with a right Inside Receiver while holding onto A's right arm with his left hand.
    B then pulls A towards him by raising his left arm as he simultaneously strikes down into A's ribs/sternum with a right down sweep. To finish B grabs hold of A’s lapels with his right hand as he drops and uppercuts his jaw with a left uppercut.
    Once competent, learn on opposite side.


    Tekki Shodan Three

    A grabs B with both hands.
    B grabs hold of A with his right hand and strikes into A's right jawline with a retracting left Inside Receiver while simultaneously pulling his body away from A and striking into A's Sp 10 (or GB 32 depending upon A's leg position) with his left foot.
    As B returns his weight to the ground (stamping if he can on A's toes) B strikes to A's left temple/jawline with a reverse wave left Inside Receiver (this can be preceded with a right kick to A's legs if desired).
    B pulls A down towards his hip with both hands gripping his head/neck/lapels. To finish B pushes both hands away from him to the left, twisting A's neck.

    Once competent, learn on opposite side.


    Tekki Shodan Four

    A grabs B with his left hand.
    B brings his right hand up underneath A’s left hand, striking into the underside of his wrist. At the same time B swings his left hand round, potentially clipping A’s temple with his fist at GB 1 or skimming A’s ribs with his elbow at LV 14, striking the top of A’s wrist (so the left hand is stacked over the right).
    With A still maintaining a grip, B now moves his right arm over the top of A’s left, applying a rubbing downward pressure from right to left across the golgi tendon. This forces A forwards and down to B’s left.
    B immediately strikes to the left with his left fist, hitting A’s left jaw.
     
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    And in English? :)

    What's the purpose of the movement in Seishan?

    Mitch
     
  7. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    This movement doesn't occur in seishan, but in it (ie the technique in question in Naihanchi) we learn how to further develop and move within the inner circular stance ( or naihanchi dachi).

    The leg manouver (in naihanchi) is more about being able to maintain a centre line and then placing the foot into a ballanced position.

    When you can do this, you can then perform the forward moving steps in seishan - whilst still maintaining your centre line.

    Simples.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    So you don't teach any combative application, you just use it as a balance and posture exercise?
     
  9. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Yep
     
  10. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Do you consider training correct balance and posture a non combative application?

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Depends upon what you perceive as correct. The classical Japanese pelvis tucked in posture stressed in some systems for example is very different from the relaxed Okinawan posture, as is the angle of the back - which in turn have different implications for dealing with resistance at close quarters. So what is correct for long range and by the book can be the worst thing you can do when someone is holding on to you. I suspect that Mitch knows what I mean by this.

    And on whether there are more effective ways of achieving the aim you mention other than using the Kata since you are not looking at the Kata's actual striking and intercepting movements as such.
     
  12. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I suspect he does, but he posted a Wado version of naihanchi for comment and as a wado-ka I have given him my "understanding" of the answer - from a wado perspective.

    Gary
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    and you can't say fairer than that. :)

    On an off topic note , it is still a source of fascination to me that Wadoka practise the Kata when they don't even pretend to regard them as having any combat value. Very much tradition for tradition's sake.
     
  14. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    And thank you very much for it and the futher explanation :)

    To be honest I just posted the top hit on youtube for naihanchi, I was interested in all versions of the kata so everyone is most welcome to chip in.

    Now if jwt can keep on topic for more than three posts I might get more information rather than going off on a tangent :whistle:

    Mitch ;)
     
  15. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Haha,

    John, we are going into deep realms here as you know.

    From my understanding, it isn't true to say that Wado kata are practiced without "combative" intent. Kata and it's realtionship with combat are approached differently maybe.

    We certainly practice our kata from a "combative" view point,but when it comes to bunkai (in the Okinawan sense) we perhaps do things differently.

    Kata within Wado is a different vehicle perhaps. No less important though.

    Gary
     
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Mitch,

    I've given you shed loads of information, if you'd take the time to read and visualise it. :)

    The one way 'shock and awe' drills I posted there postdate the writing of HFS by about 6 months, but predate the publication of HFS by about 2.5 years.
     
  17. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Sorry,

    Just added to the de-railment
     
  18. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    And much appreciated as always. I'd just like to hear from others on the forum before we go off on a tangent :)

    Mitch
     
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    We make a good team. Half a troll each. :) This way the mods will never stop us.:topic: :evil:
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009

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