This isn't the same video Mr. Martinez posted, but I would like to hear your opinion.

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by onpoint, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    I guess until we see some corto stick specialists doing their thing in an uncontrolled scenario you'll just have to content yourself with snippy remarks about those who do put themselves out in the firing line to test their methods.
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Let's everyone take a step back for a moment. It's perfectly possible to have a technical debate without everyone getting their hackles up. Some very good points made so far. Let's just dial the snark down a notch or two, yes?
  3. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Read back, DB goes from largo straight to corto, which means they do corto. Whether they are specialists, that's another issue. But the use of corto is there, Hannibal posted a couple of videos.

    I don't why this whole subject is so offensive, I'm just saying playing at corto is a lot more difficult than largo. I am surprised this is taken as some sort of iconoclastic comment, when this should be common sense.

    Again, read back, I've bowed down to DB and Pat's group for taking the this whole "higher consciousness" stuff as far as it can go. But even Pat himself agrees that sparring with sticks is not exactly reality.

    I have issues with an obvious lack of mastery then going into sparring, one should at the very least master concepts first, godforbid you'll mistake sparring for reality.

    I have all the respect for Top Dog, and would convince him to a beer instead of a brawl any day of the week,


    his little technique of going under for a knee shot leaving his head completely exposed, I don't care if he's really lighting fast, but just that missed concept alone is enough to question the wisdom of having only sparring as curriculum.

    There are other similar questionable calculus out there, I can only surmise that it's from a lack of mastery in the corto.

    I'm not saying only certain groups have corto, I am saying FMA is corto, hence every style has plenty of corto (it's in the teaching and mastery is when you see it vary).

    Tim's Garimot Arnis (just saw some videos, wasn't very familiar with this group) has plenty of corto. So I would disagree of him describing his style as largo--maybe he is a largo preferee or his teacher, but watching some of the videos, tells me corto is there.

    It's when lesser FMAists decide that corto is a fallacy that's the problem. Corto is FMA, if we water it down anymore, we'll go the same path as other sword arts, from Europe, the Arab world, China to Japan.:(
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    To date no one has managed to hit him doing that - no one

    So it could be a rash technique, or it could be that once more it is praxis slapping theory upside the head. :)
  5. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    The missed calculus part is that you're assuming too much of your opponent. Maybe he is the only person on Earth who could pull this off, but to teach this movement in a seminar setting for people like Bambi or other younger impressionable FMAist isn't too wise. The calculus is in the corto.
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Calculus doesn't put bread on the table :)

    Taking a single technique and using that as what've does wrong is a bit like watching Erik Paulson teaching groundwork and assuming he does not know how to punch.

    Certain opponents react in certain ways and when you see such an opening then that technique applies; it is a PIA in JKD terms. I teach the "hang step" as the counter myself, but again it depends on who is delivering the shot...rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock and all that
  7. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Either way, it's a pawn for a Queen technique--head for your knee. Hence calculus.:rolleyes:
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    ABD applies too :)
  9. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    What's ABD?

    Unlike unarmed combat, armed is a little bit less forgiving. Hence the calculus.:eek:
  10. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    When I asked you define what you meant by "mastery" of corto i did so because it was obvious that you deliberately vacillate between using the term as:

    a)a specific skillset

    b) a range

    Eric Knauss is a master of the close/corto range and yet you never see him need to use what you defined as the skills of corto. Is this because he is a lesser FMAist? How come none of the many corto guys in california have put him right? If he can operate successfully at this range in a stick fight (not "sparring" as you keep implying) without the skills you defined. Why does he need them to do "proper" FMA?

    I guess its up to these superior FMAists to start showing everyone where corto skills manfiest themselves in actual stick fighting then. Until then all we have is an exercise in solipsism.
  11. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    you used the argument of confidence justifying what people might criticize as "reckless" tactics and then take issue with someone for doing the same? Consistency please

    You dont have to worry about impressionable me, I use a different knee shot to top dogs. Learned it from a very skilled FMA sword guy, guess he's goes on the list of lesser FMAsts now too :D
  12. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    It's both, it's what you can do at that range.

    I don't know if he's a master at corto or not, since I've only watched him once (he retired, I think, after I saw one gathering). He does go in, but makes questionable calculus (as the one discussed above).

    In a real stick fight someone would get seriously injured, hence sparring. Don't mistake sparring for fight, Bambi.

    Like I said, DB goes from largo to corto, so many have done corto in those sparring sessions, I didn't see one get the better of Top Dog, but there were fights in which people went inside... quite a few times.

    I didn't say Top Dog has to do "proper" FMA. I'm questioning the use of sparring only as training, and offering questionable calculus--head for knee--as an example.

    Again, DB goes from largo to corto, DB does corto. There is corto in these DB gatherings, a lot of it. My critique of DB was in their sparring only as training. Tim Waid's was the criticism of a lack of corto, at least in the media, when PTK's very definition is that of corto.
  13. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Reckless and confidence are one thing, but giving your head for a knee, is another dimension of craziness for me, hence the difference... but that's just me.:rolleyes:

    Name the FMA sword guy, and I'll bet you I can trace a lot corto in his system.:cool: Guaranteed.
  14. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    As long as it doesn't involve you unnecessarily sacrificing your head, you're cool in my book, Bambi. :p I read somewhere that a pretty important organ resides there.;)
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Attack By Drawing - the earlier acronym I used (PIA) was Progressive Indirect Attack - they are JKD terminology
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You misunderstand the technique completely if you see him "giving" his head
  17. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    I'm not familiar with them. But I have a PhD in Google, so wait one...

    *Ah, I see. OK, so PIA is more like FMA's witiks or tochadas and ABD is basically enganyo. But what's the point you're trying to make, because all these moves don't need a head sacrificed to be accomplished.

    Boxers do this all the time, but dropping your head down in a sword or hardwood fight is just deadly & permanent, hence not the same as unarmed fights.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Going back the original post (way back I know but I wanted to see what this thread was about)...isn't the slight pause or change in pace at the corto range in those videos mostly just a by-product of having to take more care at that range that you don't biff the other bloke in the head?
    Much less margin for error?
    At the longer range you can swing and flow a bit easier because it's much clearer if you are going to hit each other?
    So in a training environment, with a training partner who is a friend and colleague any sane person would slow down at that point because they have some sense of decency and don't want be a tool?
  19. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    It's always a risk. But on the contrary, your opponent might sacrifice their head by defending their knee. ;)
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    More Top Dog


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