This isn't the same video Mr. Martinez posted, but I would like to hear your opinion.

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by onpoint, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Testiculus, God of Virility. :lowblow:
  2. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    Excellent - we have a constructive debate then! :)

    I totally acknowledge what you are saying about the corto range: It is indeed the range where one can show off a much wider range of techniques, with a much wider range of tools, on a much wider range of targets. HOWEVER, it is - tactically speaking - the product of an ambush (either one that has been sprung on you, or one you have sprung on your enemy). The idea of choosing to operate at corto range is so that one party does not have time to move. In real time, it is not nearly as beautiful as when demonstrated on a compliant partner.

    If duelling at long range, on the other hand, you will see both parties trying to misdirect and outmanoeuvre each other in order to create that opening - to do just enough to neutralise their adversary, without putting themselves at risk. Clean entry, result, clean getaway. To quickly engage and neutralise a target unscathed is a testament to one's skill. That is ONLY accomplished through long range proficiency.

    Don't get me wrong - i love close range - it was my sole focus for the better part of a decade. And then i had a very rude awakening when i tried to steamroller a guy who ended up steamrollering me. Lesson: There are more intelligent ways of dispatching your enemy than to crush him in a frontal attack. Certainly, corto is a range rather than an angle of approach, but if you try to close with a target and they perceive your approach, it will almost certainly be turned into a frontal attack.

    Dog Brothers and Black Eagle are the perfect example of where people either like to fight at extreme long range or extreme close range. With two long range fighters, you really see more of the art - the movement; the precision; the harmony between weapon and user. For impact weapons at long range, there's a lot more damage if an enemy's blow lands. So some fighters want to avoid the pain and get in close. When things get up close though, it's messy and clumsy and desperate, as both fighters scramble to reach a dominant position. It's not until things go static that fighters have time to alter their strategy.

    From both a tactical and technical perspective, it's pretty fugly up close.

    I once asked a certain chief instructor - arguably one of the most ferocious close range fighters to have fought on the international circuit - which range he preferred to fight at (thinking he would pick my favourite range - corto - as he always destroyed his opponents there). His answer was long range, since he took a lot less damage there, and he was getting too old for messing around trading blows.

    "...but get in close and i'll still put you on the deck..." (profanity censored)

    I didn't buy it at first, but then i spent a bit of time focusing entirely on long range, and what do you know - gold medal the following year in my first major competition :) I'm a combatives devotee, so i was never really into the tourney circuit - i only entered out of curiosity - to see if the techniques and tactics i had been practising would also work in a sporting format. And they did. Point proven.

    So, i'm going to argue contrary to you. Corto is NOT where you "make your bones as an FMAer." Because - save for ambush scenarios - corto NEEDS largo as a delivery method. Largo, on the other hand, only has corto as a contingency - it can work perfectly fine on its own :)

    A duel at largo range displays all of the best things about Filipino Martial Arts. It is a celebration of strategic thinking, devious tactics, dynamic footwork, perfect ranging, and precision marksmanship. Demonstrating overly elaborate techniques on human rag-dolls is for children and tourists. Real-time fighting is where you separate the men from the boys ;)

    Rebuttal inbound, i'm sure :D
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  3. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    "back bone"

    I agree 100% with what you said above--and I totally agree that all three ranges represent one continuum.

    I need to clarify what I meant with making your bones at corto. Everything happens quicker inside, so from a training perspective, ie, learning timing, rhythm, breaking it, eyes, feet, tactile, etc. etc. everything else we train for, we master at the corto sphere (this goes for footwork as well, you don't have to cover so much ground to understand the lessons of angling, etc.;))

    So when I say that's where you make your bones, I'm speaking more of mastery (like Pat's "back bone" below). Application, I'd agree with you, the cost/benefit analysis changes, it'll be situation dependent.

    So, the value of the things we do at corto, isn't so much that it's too difficult to pull off in combat or gets too messy, that's all already a given, corto is where chaos lives, being adept at corto gives you a better chance to mitigate the chaos. You live in corto, you'll have an easier time in largo; You live in largo; you'll succumb in corto. That's the importance, hence the baby/bathwater idiom earlier.
  4. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Another great swordsman from Torquay was a big proponent of this, Sir Richard Francis Burton. But I think had he visited the Philippines, he would've been convinced otherwise.
  5. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    1. Again all these (devious tactics, ranging, footwork, etc.) can and is better mastered at corto.

    2. Re elaborate techniques, you're missing the forest for the trees here.

    3. The failure of corto techniques in real-time fighting, is a mastery issue--corto techniques fail, you go back to the drawing board, not toss it out with the bathwater.
  6. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    he seems an interesting character. And I now live in the very town he is from. Me thinks I may have too delve deeper into him. ;)
  7. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    FMA are primarily a weapons based arts. A blade is a weapon. A baston is a weapon. Fists, fingers, elbows, knees, and feet are weapons.
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Let's be crystal clear about a couple of things Kalimutan:

    1) You came here with an ax to grind. That was clear from your first post. If you want to contribute technical/historical insight on PTK, by all means do so. But let's not revise history. Start with a clean slate now, and we'll be okay. Continue with this attitude and we won't. Nobody is attacking Tuhon Waid. On the contrary, everything I've seen here has been unwaveringly supportive. So check yourself. Unless PTK doesn't use checking either.

    2) This thread began with a perfectly valid observation on a video that was distributed for public consumption. Getting your knickers in a twist because someone had the audacity to apply some critical thinking to what they observed is counterproductive and unnecessary. If people who post videos are willing to accept praise, they must also be willing to accept questioning. Critical thinking is NOT insult. Confuse the two and you undermine a very important part of the learning process.

    Now, if you'd like to continue to provide your perspective on PTK, I encourage you to do so. But if you're going to limit yourself to agenda posting, it's going to be a tough road.

    By the way, before you go down the "internet warrior" path, yeah, I'm probably tougher on the keyboard than I would be in real life. Don't bother trying to lord that over me. I don't fancy myself a tough guy, and you're not going to ding my self-image by insinuating otherwise. So save your breath. I'm here to keep the conversation constructive. I don't care about the politics, party affiliations, or styles involved. Post well, and we'll get along just fine.

    Carry on.
  9. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

  10. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    Late to the party, but I have to chime in to say that this is flat wrong. If you want to make this case for a specific style of FMA, feel free. When you say it about all of FMA (as you have been throughout the thread), you're wrong. Not all FMA treat largo as "just throwing 1s and 2s."

  11. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    I completely agree. I don't know if you read the whole thread from the beginning, but 'throwing 1s and 2s and moving around alot' was specific to the Tim Waid videos posted in the beginning.

    I'm making the case that corto shouldn't be thrown out at the expense of the '1s and 2s, etc.', because "it's harder to work the ginunting inside".

    The flipside, on the neighboring thread, is that one can also go crazy with the light rattan stick and corto range, missing the whole point of footwork. But it is my bias that things happen quicker in the corto, hence focus should be here.:cool:
  12. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    And how would assess competency in this range?
  13. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    That's simple, by performance--the ability to execute techniques effectively at the corto range... the ability to flow, the use of small steps, the use of the alive hand, use of all limbs, body parts and precise targeting thereof, the ability to generate maximum power in short bursts, the ability to use a 28-30 inch stick or blade at that range and retention of said weapon, the ability to move in and out of corto range, and most importantly, recognizing that with the myriad of techniques available at this range, in the real world, at this range, it's a blink of an eye--hence muscle memory here (sparring's good for testing & refining, but ultimate mastery lies in the drills).
  14. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    performance in a stick fight? Because to be honest I look on corto like boxers going toe to toe, it's only a game played by two participants who both want to play there.
  15. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    That's really not a performance issue, that's more a strategy issue--completely different--maybe related to a mastery issue (but not necessarily), ie. a guy who doesn't train on the ground will try his darndest to stay away from the ground.
  16. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    Lets put in terms of strategy so, I've never seen anyone impose the corto strategy in a stick fight. You mentioned that you didnt see anyone using the corto range at a dog brothers gaterhing. I'd suggest there's a very good reason for that.
  17. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    1. This is the issue I'm raising. I've seen people impose it.

    2. Read again re corto & DB--from largo straight to corto.
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    if you take the head gear off one of two things will happen. The fight will either end at largo or it will end at corto but for the best part it won't end on the ground. The head gear changes the outcome. I found that out in my Black Eagle bouts too. And yes I've done it without head gear too and it is very different compared to donning the head protection.

    Don't get me wrong I wouldn't advise any sane human being to spar without head gear as you have to get up in the morning and it's not a pretty sight for either protagonist. But comparing Dog Brothers or Black Eagles to reality is not accurate. It's as close as you safely can get but having no protection is a whole different beast.
  19. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Said perfectly, Pat.:D
  20. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    I didn't compare what the dog brothers to do reality, what they do is stick fight with limited protection. If they took the helmets off I don't think you're going to see lots of corto hand checking etc suddenly show up. You're going to see more of the same but with more people being damaged.

    Oddly enough the only people I've seen footage of stick fighting without any armour did so to prove that grappling and thus groundfighting will happen even more without armour.

    I haven't and I've seen enough that I'm not going to take someones word alone. Unless of course by corto you mean clinch.

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