This isn't the same video Mr. Martinez posted, but I would like to hear your opinion.

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by onpoint, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    OK, so by enganyo, a fake knee hit to draw out the opponent's head? This makes a lot more sense.
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter


    As Sun Tzu said - "when you are string appear weak and weak appear strong". Eric KNOWS the head is a risk (as he says "not a kodak moment") but he is still at largo when making the low line delivery and his rise instantly counters

    If you hold to the "you might get a counter shot on you" ethos you will never make ANY move and will be annihilated by anyone with an ounce of aggression
  3. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    They have the corto techniques, why not follow thru the way that other student of Tim Waid's did? Just for the sake of practicing how movements progress.
  4. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    C'mon, Hannibal, that wasn't a feign, he committed to it. The only ethos I'm holding is don't risk your head unnecessarily, a feign isn't a risk per se, but going that far down, that's not a feign, you're assuming an unnecessary risk at that point.

    * that's the reason I asked for a real time video of this technique.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No it is not a feign it is a a power shot to a vulnerable target as an individual advances that is paired with a powershot on the rise - it is applied to specific circumstances. If the opponent is retreating and you commit to this there is a huge risk, but the shot draws them low and 9/10 they miss the high partner shot.

    Its elicits a visceral response and he is still at largo in doing so - I tend to do a "bounce" into my drop rather than a slide, but the main principle is the same. Draw low hit high and if they miss the low then you have a "take out" shot anyway
  6. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Again, that's assuming a whole lot from your opponent.:(
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Not really - you can get a sense of their response likelihood within a few seconds.

    Do you consider that Angel Cabales "sacrfices his head" when he plays low line serrada?
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  8. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    What if he's pretending to be weak? Any really good corto guy will tell you that at the corto range, there are people who can generate enough power to break your skull, hence the priority is your head, hence you don't unnecessarily place it out there.

    I'm not familiar with Angel Cabales' "low line serrada". It all depends if he has control of his opponent or not. But if he's unnecessarily placing down his head, for a knee, that has to be taken as a grave sacrifice--no matter the intent.

    The name of the game is calculated risk.

    *Regarding Angel Cabales though, here's some questions regarding corto:

    1. Why cut your stick in half?

    2. Did Cabales use this half-stick art in WWII?
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  10. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    I don't really see it, man, it looks like when he does take a knee he's doing a modified payong, maybe he's taking a knee to adjust for the height difference. But it's static demo, where opponent sticks his hand out and Cabales does a bunch of stuff, so you can't really see the this-for-that calculus in play.
  11. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    Wow. I can't fathom the mindset of someone who, after having watched a few videos, tells me that I'm wrong about the style that I train and teach. It does tell me that any discussion with you can't be productive, so please regard any of my future comments regarding your posts as not being addressed to you, but simply to ensure that uninformed readers don't mistake your false assertions as truth.
  12. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    Nothing of Spanish fencing survived. European sword arts do not lack "corto stuff."
  13. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    I said, I disagreed with your description as largo. Just like I disagree with your statement that Western fencing "do not lack corto stuff".

    Last time I checked, we can disagree in a discussion.;)
  14. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    Problem is that you're dealing with an argument that dismisses praxis as evidence because it doesn't correspond to an ideal theoria.

    Anyone who thinks the dog brothers are sparring rather than fighting, well that's where I get off the bus

    one presumes these guys are just roughhousing

    [ame=""]sayoc real fight - YouTube[/ame]
  15. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    The head-for-a-knee calculus isn't theory, it's a concept. Just because someone does it, or does it well in a protected, sparring environment, doesn't mean it's the smartest thing to do in real combat with real weapons.

    It's not combat is my point. Here's another way of saying it:

  16. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    This was a great video. But it's still sparring, the toughest hockey matches are usually those played within the team. It ceases to be sparring when there's no element of control (in this case by affinity) or protection.

    I'm a big fan of Sayoc. The system itself isn't anything special, but it's the individuals within the organization that's allowed for evolution & development.

    I think though that those two in the video will agree, that light rattan sticks are a form of protection, and this sparring session would look completely different had they had blades or harder sticks (not saying that they should fight with blades and harder sticks here).

    You're training for combat, you're not training for sparring--although sparring is good, it's not the end all, be all, you have to understand the concepts of how real combat will be, then calculate your;) risks based on those concepts understood.
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    quite a lot. In the FMA that is. But that's another debate. ;)
  18. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    So in order to defend your position, you're going to have to dismiss what the dogbrothers do as "sparring with protection" and what the sayocs are doing in that clip as invalid because its not combat.

    We were discussing stick fighting, these people are stick fighting.

    Argue otherwise on an FMA forum and people will begin to draw their own conclusions.

    Again with the vacillating too I note, apparently we're now spiralling into the realms of combat instead of stick fighting. Every time someone offers proof of their position you try to shift the paradigm further out again. Anyone who is familiar with the term god-of-the-gaps will see that for what it is.

    The onus is on the person who makes the claim to provide the proof. One notes that you have never even attempted to do so.
  19. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Whoa... no one's invalidating anything when it comes to Sayoc, especially me. Read again.

    Again stick fighting is training for actual weapons, a light stick rattan although pretty damn dangerous by itself, is not a blade and not a hardwood.

    This shouldn't be something new, Bambi, the light rattan stick is a training tool. This shouldn't be a newsflash, it has always has been a training tool used to train real combat. Should always be, don't forget this basic point.
  20. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    We debated this before actually, and caused an Illustrisimo fella to change his art to KlasiKali, because according to him we didn't get anything from the Spaniards, and Kali symbolized some pre-Spanish FMA:rolleyes:. Remember that debate?:bang: That was a tough one too.

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