The WORST knife defense I have seen...well since the last one

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Hannibal, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Upon the "ice pick"/psycho overhead downward thrust
    [​IMG]

    The X-Block:
    Pros
    * The block is designed to allow extra measures by using both arms
    * If done when using a circular-arcing movement, the knife/blade can be moved a little
    out of direct harms way

    Cons
    * I have seen it too regimented.
    * Most of the time, people do not keep arms tight
    * The attacker slowed/stopped their movement to allow the defender to execute the block.
    * The attacker lunging in a manner that their weight overpowered or caused the defender
    to lost balance.
    * No consideration of a retract-slash, repeated attack
    * Leaves chest/mid section open
    * Doesn't allow for a quick follow up with a hand strike

    The X-Block vs a Single Upper Block:
    Pros
    * A single arm block may suffice, given that the arm is upwards at a slight angle to also
    allow for a better deflection.

    * A single arm block allows for a "free" arm/hand in order to strike, almost or
    simultaneously, thus lessen the follow-up reaction time.

    Cons
    * Proper form must be practiced more so eliminating a languid, less rigid block

    * Some Power and Speed must be utilized

    Will the X Block, per maintaining balance, work with Heels or on unleveled surfaces?
    [​IMG]

    The "V" Block or Single Hand;
    Would this be effective for the "ice pick"/psycho overhead downward thrust?
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I don't think that block takes into account reaction time or follow up attacks. Also, I haven't seen many people stab like that in drilling scenarios.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    There may be some discussion on exactly how people attack with a knife but I bet very few hold their arm in that weird straight ice pick position.

    Just check any modern bunkai interpretation of "X-blocks" and you won't find anything like that old fashioned stuff in the pictures.
    It becomes collar chokes, ground restraints or at the most the first part of hubud type arm trapping where one arm intercepts and then the other joins it to move and control the arm.
    Using an x-block like that isn't even worth discussing IMHO.
    It's been misunderstood for decades and far better methods are available.
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    If you look at that last pic there's a lot more going on than a "block".
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hey 47MartialMan,

    Just another quick note about that X-block in the pictures. That, IME, is not the correct X-block hand positions for a short blade. The right arm on top of left arm X-block position where you try to stop at the opponent's wrist is more for overhead club defense. If you are further away, you might still be able to block on the club and redirect. Plus the bottom left hand can attack.

    More commonly taught, IMHO, for reverse grip downward knife in opponent's right hand would be to have the left hand check (be on top of the right arm). This allows the bottom right hand to attack.

    As for the V-block pictured... anything can work, but don't get caught in the details or what the block is. Any block or sweep that can safely get to engaging the opponent's elbow is going to work better than one that has to reach for the elbow. Almost all the basic knife counter drills I teach sweep at the elbow... this is a BIG cheat. Getting to the elbow safely is a huge accomplishment.

    If you have the ability to attack the wrist and move up to the elbow reliably in alive training against a knife, you have some skills... this is not easy.
     
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    The sad thing about the X block used against a blade in the manner shown in these pictures is that anyone ice-picking in a realistic manner and genuinely trying to stab their opponent will either succeed in doing so or deeply cut the arms of the person doing the blocking as they continuously rake and hack with the blade.
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Not to mention the big hole left on the low line and the inability to use the right arm to protect the low line if the attacker were to change angle and slash low.

    I think some of these techniques taught are not for knife but more for club or maybe even shank. Weapons that can thrust, but don't have a sharp edge. IMHO. Not saying they are ideal anyway, but just the context would make more sense if not having to deal with a sharp edge.
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Even just one committed downward strike, even if blocked as intended with an x-block would just make the elbow of the attacker bend and then the arm and knife will carry on through and past the arms, cutting as they go.
    That block would only really work if you applied it above the elbow.
    And good luck with that. :)
     
  9. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    why is this continually being taught though? even a basic kali seminar should dispel the effectiveness of this to someone. yet, "martial arts" continually teach this. is it tradition?
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Its because they never pressure test and have no experience in reality - sadly they don't WANT to know either, which is one reason I get so vociferous against them...look at all those "Video game bad guy" clips I posted...no one can believe that works unless you are drunk, high or wilfully ignorant yet he has more students than i do!

    Some people prefer lip-service to training rather than actual training because it makes them feel good....but feeling good is not a prerequisite for any martial art
     
  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i admit it, i bought into it for a long time also. i also used to think that i could actually fight if i needed to. you want to trust that the person you're giving your money to has your best interests at heart, and that you're being taught something worthwhile. the reality is much different though. and like you say, teachers (and students too) don't want to know what they're doing doesn't work.

    and i can see why. honestly, pressure sucks. i'm a bjj white belt. you know how much that sucks? i rolled with two brown belts this morning, guess how that went for me.

    i box occasionally against a couple older gentlemen. you know how much it sucks to take a liver shot from a 55-year-old that's been boxing for 25+ years?
     
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Whether high or low I don't believe that Juji Uke (x receiver) is anything to do with 'blocking' and when I teach karateka who use it I don't demonstrate it as such.
     
  13. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    That's not a thrust, and all of your examples will get you killed.

    Are these how you teach knife defense? If not, why don't you tell us how to defend against an attack like this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Is that Adolf Hitler doing the v-block? :confused:
     
  15. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Yeah, but if a fist or knife is in fast momentum, could you actually grab the arm with one hand as shown?
     
  16. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    That's how he got his salute :eek:
     
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I have seen this in other schools/defense courses, in the past
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Agree.

    Hence upon my list cons:
    No consideration of a retract-slash, repeated attack

    People who "supposedly" taught/train in this method, clearly do not understand the mechanics of what the attacker is really trying to
     
  19. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Agreed

    This is not how I teach. Luckily, I found examples from those "supposed schools/defense courses"
     
  20. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Ignorance is bliss.






    (Note: Multi quote feature not working for me atm)
     

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