The value of karate blocks

Discussion in 'Karate' started by magpie, Oct 16, 2009.

  1. magpie

    magpie Valued Member

    Within karate blocks & the blocking movement you might find afew more techiques than just the bottom line block you think you are performing.

    This is true of all karate blocks, here are my thoughts on one of those blocks, sote uke (middle level block)

    The pristine version performed by raising the right hand and bending the elbow with the knuckle of the right hand thumb touching the top of your right ear, the left hand is extended out directly in front of you. Then you withdraw the left hand to the hip and arc your right hand around to stop the middle level punch or strike (usually a linear/straight attack).

    There are many different types of applications for the sote uke, one application could be,

    First half of the movement
    block/cover response to a left hand round punch by raising your right hand (alittle closer to your head than whats shown in the photo (only one i could find)) then use your left hand to strike, a good way to look at it is block/cover a right hand round punch to your head and left jab simultaneously.
    [​IMG]

    Second half of the movement
    Then with your left hand grab his clothing, hair ear, behind the neck and pull him in towards you and hammer strike with soto uke, to chin, temple or side of face/head/neck.
    [​IMG]

    Ofcourse this could apply to both sides of the body, that is if it was a right hand round punch use your left hand to block/cover and your righthand to strike, these teccniques utilize gross motor skills which under adrenal like conditions (real fight) will be easier to execute.


    And when you do use them as pure blocks they are of the shortened variety that is there is no chambering or withdrawal of the non strking hand to the hip, as Mr Machida shows us with the pressing block no wind up no retracting the other hand just perfect timing and execution.

    Osae uke jodan seiken gyaku zuki
    [​IMG] Lyoto Machida shotokan karateka in UFC [​IMG] karate competition

    Some more applications of karate blocks.

    Utilising Basics-1
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2EOM-w-DqY"]YouTube - Utilizing Basics Part 1[/ame]

    Utilising basics-2
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpSegDZIiGI"]YouTube - Utilizing Basics Pt 2[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  2. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Shame that the grabbing-sweeping sort of block you show in the Machida video isn't actually taught as part of kihon or gohon/sanbon kumite in my experience. Double shame that the sorts of basic blocks we ARE taught to use in kihon and gohon/sanbon kumite don't really work very well (at least in the manner in which novices are taught to use them) once the script is taken away.

    I mean, when is the last time you saw someone in a free-sparring situation successfully use an age uke to block a face punch?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Not ever. But I have used an age uke to cover my head from a punch (extended arm) and drive my forearm across the side of the neck. You can also see me demonstrating age uke as both a punch, elbow strike and forearm strike.
     
  4. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Yeah, for the record, I don't think age uke is useless. I just think it's useless in the manner it's traditionally taught to lower-ranked karateka (as a rising block to the wrist or forearm of an incoming head punch).
     
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I learned that as gedan nagashi, one of our kumite techniques in Kyokushin. Not sure if that's the actual name or a name they borrowed (I know Enshin uses the same terminology) but all the traditional techniques we consider blocks can easily be shortened up. Chudan uchi uke and chudan soto uke are great blocks for kumite when you use those shortened versions.

    At the risk of going off on a tangent, in my opinion it's because many of the "blocks" are way more than they seem.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Check out this article by Lawrence Kane called "Shock Blocks" as well, a great article.

    http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Lawrence_Kane_8.asp
     
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    shotokan =|= all karate

    the VAST majority of karate styles that do not descend from shotokan, do NOT use the wide open blocks that shotokan has in its kihon and kata
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I thought all karate came from Shotokan?

    ...just kidding! I kid, I kid, please god put down the tonfa, no, stop, it noooooooo!!!

    In all seriousness, yeah, I should have specified Shotokan instead of saying karate.
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    All blocks are strikes and there are no stances in shotokan when engaged in combat.


    I was shown this in the early sixties.
     
  9. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    Actually, I could swear I've seen an age uke against a face punch in video footage of "Kudo" kumite. I'll have to dig that up. But yes, I'd agree that I've in most all karate and taekwondo I've seen, most methods of blocking and most all of taisabaki vanish in kumite. (I find the latter phenomenon even more disturbing than the former phenomenon.)

    I often hear people, even karateka, say things like "It's impractical and unrealistic to block incoming kicks using blocking techniques involving the use of one's forearm!" or "Oh, we don't actually use gedan-barai as a down-block...", but it's interesting to see a certain Mr. Matsui not find the matter so problematic [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15UrTvfiUWA"]here[/ame] at 4:54 to 5:07.

    Personally I'm curious why the blocks don't work well. Why is that?

    Quite possibly, but it's amazing how much contention you'll get over what specifically those strikes are.
     
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    @mitlov: Fear the WRATH of kake uke!

    *grab*

    DO YOU FEEL IT???

    *ahem*

    :D
     
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's because good techniques tend to be versatile and thus can be used for many many different things. :)
     
  12. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Too much focus on using the technique exactly as it is taught and not looking at the principles that in actuality make the technique work.
     
  13. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Blocks? Where? :D

    Mitch
     
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    *whispering* pssst, mitch, they're in the mind... *whispering*
     
  15. magpie

    magpie Valued Member

    In my opinion you get taught the full range of motion in basics so you can perform the shortened variety in kumite.

    Even though you are not swinging the blocking arm in the shortened method you still know the feeling of actually blocking.

    People who squat flies with their blocks end up getting their heads taken of in a real encounter.

    And Mitlov aren't you taught the long version of osae uke at your club, well then you should be able to use the shorter version like Machida, that is if you practice it, or are you wanting to use it in its basic form against a punch in a real encounter, well then ofcourse it wont work unless your the flash.

    Anyway you have missed the point i was trying to make.

    As an example i used the soto uke and the techniques with in the technqiue.
     
  16. sdkjester

    sdkjester Valued Member

    The best idea is to not take any technique at face value. It's like the transformers more than meets the eye.
     
  17. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    But why would the former ever not embody the latter?

    Is it a karate thing? I'm trying to imagine an instructor of, say, Olympic fencing or Thai boxing or whatever, ever telling their students "Ok guys, this is how you parry incoming strikes. But it won't work as taught.".

    Why not? Oftentimes, a kick is just a kick.
     
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    This is my single biggest beef with Shotokan, at least the way it's taught in my region. When you've got low-ranking people present, things are often taught formalized beyond recognition. And then there's this point where you're (implicitly, not explicitly) told "everything you've learned so far is dead wrong and was just to try to build up body mechanics. NOW you're going to actually learn how to fight." When you've got high-ranking people working with each other, things tend to be pretty realistic (except for kata, which is still often formalized beyond recognition as fighting).

    But why not teach it the more realistic, advanced way from day one? Keep an emphasis on karate body mechanics, keep the focus on basics instead of complex throws and joint locks. That way it'll still be karate. But teach the techniques the way you need to do them to actually make them work from day one. That's how we did it when I fenced. That's how we did it when I did taekwondo (forms excepted). But that's not how we've done it when I do Shotokan.

    Sorry for the rant, I've just been a bit frustrated recently with the Shotokan curriculum (at least around here). I'm not frustrated with the finished product--how a good Shotokan guy fights once he's worked on Shotokan for a while--but I'm very frustrated with how kyu ranks are introduced to the material.

    The Machida DVDs have really what's brought this up for me. As I work through them, I'm not seeing anything where I say "gosh, I had no idea that was what karate would look like in the hands of an experienced karateka." But what I am saying to myself more and more is: "if we worked karate techniques in this manner during day-in-day-out practice instead of doing more traditional kihon and gohon kumite most of the time, I would be a much better karateka than I am today."
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2009
  19. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    At the risk of being told "so what" by flamers i would like to add that there has allways been more to blocks that meet the eye..
    There is a different kind of learning going on during basics repetition, i dont like it but i know it.
    Play around with the chambering of the blocks (inner/outer), theres arm breaks there for starters, Karate do has been the victim of many peoples including the japanese..
    Zen do kai here in Oz has m.m.a, muay thai, kali etc. One may become proficient in these techniques, however if one is not grounded hes just floating and flailing about..
    So i know the value of repeated basic techs. If we went to something like that crappy krav maga we would "know stuff", but how strongly could one apply it without this time spent on basics? remembering ofcourse that half the fight is mental.
    Woops, kravs allright, a bit pricy to learn how to pick up a weapon though isnt it lol.
    In the real world you want to be inside, elbow to neck or head. We should allways picture the worst, therefor there can be no time spent dancing about etc, thats sporting gameplay.
    So break down the blocks and see there inside applications that have allways been there, not becouse somebody said so either.
    Nobody "owns" any style of martial art, make it your own and dont wait for recognition from others, they will be to busy paving their own road :)


    Edit: If standup elbows were allowed in ufc, how do you picture fights ending now? So much for the power of the grappler hey? I havent yet seen a NO rules fight in modern times since say... Smashing machine, even then no standup elbows.....Dont be fooled guys, grappling in the real world isnt an option, Unless your in law enforcement or bouncing etc, becouse why, well theres rules there you see. As soon as theres no rules, its quite different to the crappy wild swings and then gayrappling contest weve bought into...
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2009
  20. magpie

    magpie Valued Member

    Hey all good things take time.

    Some people are happy with going to class from day one and sparring or rolling in an alive manner thinking that they are improving all the time which they probably will for a while.

    But imo the person who spends alot of time on the basics of his system and then gets into sparring will be much more accomplished.

    If a crappy techqniue is drilled from day one of training with hardness in sparring ten years latter it will still be a crappy techqniue with hardness.

    Basics are the foundation of shotokan and i would dare to say all traditional karate, dont expect your sensei to hand everything to you on a silver plater, it doesn't work that way.

    You have to get of your bum and do some research, theoretical and empirical.
     

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