What a superb post Cloudhandz. Thanks to FQ for the setup ... this is the real meat to come out of a forum. Bravo!
Thanks Walung, appreciated. Unfettered, truth of it is under real intense pressure, and that means competition, it all looks more or less the same. I would LOVE to be shown in any way that this isn't the case, or at least get a reasonable and/ or good explanation from somewhere why this isn't true for 'real taiji' - you maybe ? I hear Huang was a p/h champ in Taiwan was it? Well do you think his matches were like his 'put on' with the wrestler or his push hands displays with his students? Doesn't mean everything that's going on by way of method is exactly the same across arts. But truth is a sumo want to push into the other sumo where they are weak - kuzushi, dead angle - it's no different in taiji. If it were only a case of size and strength how do the smaller sumo often beat the bigger one. Only can be done with skill. Remember those clips of masters pushing in China. That was a more sedate kind of pushing than Mr. Napoli clip in China or any sumo.. A foregoing of more intense, 'brute' methods for patience and methodical approach perhaps. Like watching the masters teams playing five a side football, compared to how the premiership might play. A lot depends on 'the occasion' and who's in there to my mind.. If someone goes for the power approach you haven't necessarily got time to be methodical and patient and overcome them with skill. First you have to be able to match them at their game, in other words be able to deal with it. Then skill will out. Same with boxing. Alis' greatness wasn't just his impecable skills. He could hang tough. See his extrordinary display against the bigger, stronger Foreman. He avoided the head to head - had a strategy for it, then used his skill. But if you don't have to bide your time and can simply win - then why not do it with any means at your disposal. The quickest and most direct. After all in any real scenario, direct, powerful and fast and effective is what is really needed. Skillful means comes after, comes second to that when your neck is on the line - and I think that truth comes out in competative formats. If and when you can do it in style, then you do. And there are lots of fighters, teams etc. That can and do do that when it is the time. It's a similar thing in football. As an analogy - if you don't earn the right to play in football - ie. can't match the other team physically. You could have a team full of Skill and experience, but still lose. That you can't see comparable skill in other forms of wrestling is nothing less than short sightedness, cognotive dissonance or just plain willfull ignorance, lack of exposure and understanding. respectfully. I mean what would be the point of showing me Wee kee Jins clips he has on his site ? Show me one of these guys of yours in a competition like Mario here and then we can really talk. Oh and a state of relaxation is certainly a relative state! good grief.. Relaxing in front of the Telly is different to the 'relax' of form, which in turn is another state of relax available in pushing in class. Another to competition pushing. Another to full contact san shou an yet another being attacked in the street. You can only 'relax' relatively to which the given situation allows you too and as far as you are used to that and trained for. Someone banging on "relax, relax, relax" is meaningless. can he show you how to really relax against a sumo trying all his worth to push you out? No, you can only experience and apply yourselfwhat this could mean in this instance. Or he can demonstrate that. If a lack of relaxation is the beef with a clip like this, then that is flabbergastingly weak criticism.. You really think you can learn to relax in the way you want facing powerful, resisting pressure never putting yourself in that sort of situation as Mario Napoli does in this clip? In other words, know what it is like to face real opponents, people training for competition or just run of the mill people in class, not pulling or holding back in any way. That's something a teacher must dictate though. So no Heavan, Man, Earth taiji clips either. as much as I like some of the descent skills Mizner and his No.1 sidekick sometimes display in their clips. There is no genuine competative element. there are also some dubious no touch elemnts to them too, which is a little worrying. It speaks to me of 'cult' like behaviour. rather than just plain ol' honest to goodness martial training. I really think there is a genuine truth here, that for whatever reason you don't want to acknowledge. It's not taiji that really makes special, but skill, natural ability and hardwork - and that can apply to many people in many arts, fighting and otherwise.
A Chinese woman said to me once that one day China will bow to the West in terms of Chinese martial arts, because in many ways we take it more seriously than a lot of the youth now in China. I don't know about that, but I think we have a chance to become much better, in fact, than the Chinese, because we are exposed to so much more information, so many more styles, etc. We actually know a lot more about the world's other martial arts and training than many Chinese masters of the past, or maybe even now. I know my coach had seen all kinds of Chinese arts, but knew little of foreign arts beyond boxing. Remember Wang Zhang Zhai's words that there is no difference, foreign, Chinese, internal, external, old new - only, right, effective, good, useful, innovative, applicable. To me, the message of this video is that we can become much better than the Chinese masters who remain in a tight gene poolof their art, because we can add in genes from wide sources to improve the evolution of our skill. Mario proves the point - if a bit of sumo works, add it in... Taiji, like Latin, is considered dead, as in, new stuff isn't allowed in. I say, ignore that, and wins will speak louder than anything.
I don't agree. There is a circular argument at work here. It goes like this, "Taiji all looks the same under real pressure we know this from genuine clips of Taiji being used. We decide which are the genuine clips by whether or not it looks real i.e. the same as everything else." This isn't my responsibility. I cannot tell you what "real taiji" is but it seems to me that the principles of taiji have been fairly clearly laid out by its greatest practitioners. When something violates those principles I suspect it is not Taiji. I suppose the match with the wrestler was a "put on" because it doesn't look real to you? You are demonstrating the circular argument above. That is what real taiji applied under pressure looks like - not sumo. I have never said that practitioners of other arts don't have high skill - only that the skills are not the same. No better, no worse - but different. This is why CMC urged his students to invest in loss. Better to lose than fall back on the habitual reactive way of moving that is the opposite of what Taiji teaches us. All quite valid as a fighting strategy - but not taiji. Comparable to what? What I consider to be great Taiji doesn’t look like wrestling. And you don’t think it does either which is why you don’t believe it is genuine. When I look at other arts I do see comparable levels of skill. It’s just that I think the skills are different in nature. I don’t dispute any of that. However that doesn’t really change anything. The guys in this clip are anything but relaxed. It is anything but meaningless - it is the essence of Taiji which is probably why Cheng said it. Is it possible to maintain and use the principles of Taiji in the face of a sumo giving it his all? Maybe not. But my interest is in finding out for myself whether its principles really work in the face of furious power and I won’t do that by resorting to physical strength every time physical strength threatens to overpower me. For me, this is the meaning of “invest in loss”. It is also the reason why competition doesn’t interest me – for the moment at least. The urge to win, to defend the self would almost certainly overcome the calm intention to stick to the principles. You know, it might not seem it, but as fighting skill in general goes I basically agree with you. There are common “truths” about training to become a good fighter. They're basically the ones that everyone here mentions such as bag work, hard sparring, physical conditioning, technique, a broad base of skill in different areas such as ground game and stand-up grappling, punching and kicking. I don’t dispute all that, I just think that alongside it, Taiji offers an alternative. That it uses as its main strategy the polar opposite principles. I certainly don’t believe that that makes it a superior method, it may even be an inferior one. But it interests me because it has so many other merits. However as regards this clip, I still maintain that the participants have abandoned the widely known principles of the art. To relax and yield, to deflect a force of a thousand pounds with four onces. I don’t think it’s that unreasonable to think that those guys aren’t doing the thing that those words are describing. Again I completely agree. What is it about my position which makes you think I don’t value and respect different types of skill? I have never claimed that taiji is better than anything else. Just different. In what way does that devalue what it is different from? Do we assume a painter considers sculpture a lower art because he says he uses different techniques to a sculptor?
Well that depends what you mean but if it's what I think you mean, then years. Not that that is in any way relevant.
Fascinating to me how Zhao Dao Xin specifically mentions Taiji heroes waxing lyrical about polar opposite principle theory, when in reality, when you see how they really try to use their art, it's nothing at all like that, and much more to do wth people pouring over theory on their own than actually seeing if it works. It's like the same nonsense is peddled, 1920s, 30s, on and on and on... and on.... Maybe it can't be done all the time -maybe it refers to a once a fight type moment where youunblance and push, etc. That's hard to do against real resistance - never mind real violence. Maybe real, applied taiji isn't anything like fantasy taiji? Just a thought... I'll tell you why - it's like saying that taiji is just as good as all other arts - but me, like many others, are wondering why we can see hundreds of competent stylists of other styles, but taiji, with probably the most participants, has the least, i.e. none that anyone can find, who genuinely has publicly demonstrated these skills on film. You know, not that film is the be all and end all - spare me that excuse- but they're are so many heroes willing to film themselves doing faked stuff.
How will you find that out by never training in a resistive environment for years? Where are you based?
Agreed. The Chen tourney clip being a good example. You can't test whether it works if you're not doing it. Well it's possible but unlikely. They could have just said "use a force of four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds if possible but if not just blast them with everything you've got." Agreed. I'm open to the possibility. Putting your dissatisfaction with the taiji videos you have seen aside for a moment - we've been there numerous times - do you really believe that saying taiji is different but as good as other arts, devalues those other arts?
By steadily increasing the pressure to which I am subjected at a rate that I can adapt to without sacrificing the principles. The south-west. Why do you ask?
Yes. And the people most responsible for that are the taiji people who themselves have turned it in to an effete exercise in self image.
Because I want you to come to train with me. I want to eliminate through the sheer hardship of training with me, these effete ideas you have.
Well, having lived in Manchester I do have reason to visit. I would be happy to train with you next time I do. I wonder, for all your questioning of other people's motives, whether you have really questioned your own reasons for wanting to "eliminate" my ideas. If you could do that, what would you get out of it?
Ok.. are we sure we are talking about principles that guide practice or principles to adhere to blindly in genuine combative situation. I also would be interested to hear from you which principles are violated in this particular match. Where they forced errors or just blatent ignoring of 'good taichi'. Well i'm not just saying it "just because". What sealed it for me is what I've heard from people with an ear to that circle speaking and what they say about it. people that have trained extensively in Taiwan such as Tim Cartmell. It's pretty much common knowledge in Taiwanese MA circles that the match was worked. You only need apply a little critical thinking and make comparisons to see it. The other guy was supposed to be a champion Chinese wrestler. First watch some Chinese wrestling matches and maybe some other types of wrestling matches, see what they look like. Does he fight like that? Or does the 'fight' look more like Saturday morning wrestling or WWF ? And this is not an issue of methods and strategy looks wise, it's a case of looking like a realistic genuine contest, whatever else goes on. Besides that i like it as a demo. In effect that is what it is, it was a showcase -put together to showcase tai chi. Huang and the wrestler did a sterling job. I agree that there are differences. but have you seen for instance the clips of Mifune with his students? His softness and neutralizing is outstanding. It's not exactly the tai chi way. But I'd like to hear from you, an articulation of the skills you are addressing. Yep, and I follow his advice as best I can in class training (against resistance) - it is easy to fail at this sometimes, so it is great advice. But It is guidance for training to be better. Any taiji used is only a reflection of the participants. Yang Ban Hou famously said words to the effect of 'if you are in the position where your force can overcome his or is greater than then use it.' Those are the words of a practical man. It is the highest folly not to and give some one with bad intent to you a chance, just to demonstrate principles and ideals. Why is it not taiji strategy, more specifically. Did Yang Ban Hou not do the same taiji as you? Did Ali not demonstrate avoiding clashing head on?
Surely these skills can be applied in grappling and wrestling ? maybe they are smaller and faster. If you havn'r engaged in that format, are you in the best position to know? How to adapt and use the body skills in various ways. i think the opportunities to exploit weakness are small, or to borrow are small when people are well matched. So maybe you aren't seeing the taiji that is there particularly clearly. But if you havn't wrestled like that, why would you? But so I know please flesh it out a bit more, what kind of skills exactly. Relative to what? relaxed in the way you do a form kind of relaxed ? Physical strength is not a dirty word. It's about using it intelligently. Better to have it and learn to use it well and appropriately, than not have it at all. Well if you ever want to get there the sooner you get on that road the better. i mean in class don't you work a competitive game/ drills of fixed and moving step? i don't get why it is seen as either or. Cant you work on it together, is there any other way to make real progress? To overcome those instincts you have to face them, recognize them and with familiarity you can work to overcome them. It is not an easy thing, so I would get on it one way or another if I were you. Not to be condescending just offering genuine advice here.. Well maybe it's happening in a way that isn't glaringly obvious to you. To be honest and not being a nob here. If you train one way and not this way - as in "full on" quite frequently, then it's no surprise you'll recognise little traditional push hands patterns and skills that come easy in far less intense drills etc.b Adapting drills for real usage is a common thing, using things a bit differently - the substance of it is the same though. the patterns, applications are for the most part a formalisation. We have to often take them "back out" and make them informal again, adaptable and usable in different ways. this Will often lead to a "roughness" that might not be instantly recognisable. Something to think about anyway. Well i think there are different methods going on, but also a broad base skill set that is very similar. Where you get the differences in skills is through specialization - which is what i think you are referring too. Certainly there is specialization in tai chi. This specialization won't count for very much at all if you can only do it in compliant or fixed semi compliant settings ( like a lot of the demos we can point too) It’s often more than a case of principles, I think we are in the territory of ideals much of the time in Tai chi, and we shouldn’t forget that they are just that. It’s good to have ideals to work toward but there’s no reason to put them on a pedestal and covet them too much. Not that they can not be realized sometimes, but to expect picture perfect tai chi all the time under heavy pressure testing conditions is handing a victory to fantasy over reality.. I think anyway.
Hopefully, you will both meet. And equally hopefully, it will be video'd so that we who have endured the verbal sparring between you can see the 'action'.
Filming is no problem, but let me make it clear that my invitation isn't a means of intimidation by any means - I deplore and reject the ethos of those frauds who defend their public lies with attempts to taunt and goad people in to walking in to dangerous, private situations. I'm actually open to anyone coming to train with me, and my motivations are to spread authentic training principles and ideas as I see them, and to learn from others. My primary rules, as anyone finds out who comes to see me, are - safety and well being of everyone involved and seeing how I can be of service to you. But I am not a lazy trainer, and it is usually a hardship to train with me if you're not a serious trainer too, and you actually do my training session with me, which is not comfortable to most people.
You're not one of those people that stands around the edges shouting "fight, fight, fight!!" are you? I'd rather hoped you were better than that.
It is relevant because it illustrates your viewpoint on this matter. If you never participate in "alive" training, it's understandable why you might criticize the video in the OP as being anything less than good solid Taiji. Your viewpoint is colored by the poor training methods you obviously espouse.
