The Tai Chi Investment

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Dan Bian, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Actually the point is there are teachers producing students who can fight with tai chi in a short period of time, Docherty was a police man in Hong Kong so I doubt he was a full time student, and his students here are fighting whilst training part time, its about how you train they trained to fight by fighting and sparring if your not doing that then you simply wont be able to fight a year from now or 10years
     
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    And there's the get out of jail free card, you dont know what you are looking at so no point in showing a video because it would go right over your heads, seriously the thread was about being able to fight effectively with tai chi, its fairly easy for most to judge a clip of fighting or hard sparring no matter what the style.....it's just a shame those clips are few and far between when it comes to the so called internal arts
     
  3. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    If you don't train realistically and under pressure then there is very little chance that you will be able to use what you have studied successfully in a real fight. I think that is a given.

    The variables are how you get to the point where you are ready to train your 'art' in that way.
     
  4. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    No, it's not a 'get out of jail free card'. There are oodles of videos on YouTube with hundreds of idiotic comments posted, by people who clearly haven't a clue what they are watching. Have you not seen any of them? :confused:
     
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Youtube is a decent indicator of fighters and their ability. Camera don't lie. Hard tai chi sparring even.
     
  6. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    You are showing your age here! :D

    Like I said before, those of us who grew up without YouTube don't see it as the 'godlike proof of all things' that you young 'uns seem to do.

    If it ain't on it then it ain't on it. As hard as it might be to comprehend that not everything is on YouTube, sometimes you just have to accept it. ;)


    PS: I do think it's a pity that there isn't lots of Taiji hard sparring on YouTube, but there you go. Maybe there wil be in the future, who knows?
     
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Pressure testing. I want to see pressure tested Taiji that is actual Taiji and not Muay Thai/Boxing/BJJ in Taiji uniforms.
    Seeing is believing and Youtube is the biggest 'seeing' channel in the world.
     
  8. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I'd love to see that too. It would be interesting. It wouldn't make me see things any diffferently, but I think I would enjoy watching it.

    I'd find it interesting to see things like really advanced pushing-hands, and free sparring. I don't think I've ever seen any of that online.

    That's very true. Still doesn't 'prove' anything one way or another, if 'proof' is what you are after, but it can be a valuable resource as wel as being entertaining.
     
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It's not proof, but it highly suggests that Taiji does not incorporate this type of training. I can find videos of a vast range of training techniques and methods, but nothing that shows Taiji being properly pressure tested as a martial art and that's fine, until people start claiming that Taiji does pressure test itself and the lack of videos is just a coincidence - that's not a convincing argument.
     
  10. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    This looks pressure tested to me, I don't know much about Tai Chi Chuan beyond its history and all the Daoist hooplah, but as far as I know this and similar videos are on Youtube. It does make sense to question why these are so uncommon considering the vast number of folks who practice or claim to practice "tai chi" of some sort, but clearly martial artists training tai chi in pressure testing environments is a thing, just not something you see every day (even if you go looking on Youtube). There is a lot of chaff to sift through to find the wheat. I forget where I found this video bookmark (might have been right here on this site, who knows my memory is terrible).

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTP16HPFMms"]Chen Tai Chi (Taijiquan) Fight Free Spar. 陳自強 Chen ZiQiang - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  11. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    'Taiji' cannot pressure test itself: it isn't a monolithic entity. It is people who can pressure test what they train in, and people train in a huge variety of different ways, and with different goals in mind. I suspect that the number of people who train in Taiji with the aim of becoming an efficient all-round fighter is very small, to be honest. Certainly far smaller than the number of people who just do it because they enjoy it, or for a bit of excercise.
     
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It's a good video, but its worth noting that the guy is an internationally famous Taiji master. I'm more interested in seeing how the norms train.
     
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    This is a massive cop out. "It's not the style, it's the people who train in it!" This is what we are used to hearing in the Ninjutsu forum.

    This thread isn't about the old people who wave their hands around in the park on a Sunday morning. It's about the people who are training in Taiji because they want to improve their fighting ability and whether Taiji offers an acceptable return on the time those people invest into the style.
     
  14. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Right and so that begs a question, if the 'norms' as you put it aren't training like he does, why not? When I read the comments on that video they suggest he encourages speed and resistance and strikes when training and especially mixing things up outside tai chi chuan, like this one.

    Maybe that's the secret, not studying any one style to master it, but the welcoming attitude of 'I will meet and cross hands with any style'. If you do enough of that sort of thing, you can become the real tai chi chuan master, and make the 'good videos' :) Look at the video again from the perspective of the partner, not the tai chi chuan master. Didn't he just learn something valuable about tai chi chuan in a few minutes, versus years? I think he did! But he already had a decent amount of ability and awareness etc from his own training. Someone without that baseline would have said "he just pushed me that's not Tai Chi", but he probably went "wow, so that's Tai Chi".
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  15. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Yeah, I don't believe that. The other guy wasn't going 100%. There are several points in that video that a half competent striker would have thrown a punch or a knee or at least stayed at striking range, yet he chooses to clinch and walk around with him instead.
     
  16. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I agree with your assessment it sounds like the hyperbole of a student etc, but still the right kind of attitude :D It honestly seems to be the fear that holds a lot of these 'other' schools back, for lack of a better phrase, a fear of exposure to "toughs" in other words people who are actually strong and athletic and trained. Yet here is a 125lb man in his later years vs a much younger 240lb wrestler and there is not a sense of apprehension whatsoever and you get the sense that he is comfortable taking his martial arts to his limits. That's the mark of a "supreme ultimate fist" master at least as far as I know it, in addition to not landing on his butt as often as the other guy :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  17. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    We don't know how well trained the other guy was, but given his atrocious cardio, I doubt he's a good wrestler. A 120lb judo black belt can throw around a 250lb white belt without much trouble, too. It's not impressive once you understand the canyon in their experience.
     
  18. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    So his chi was poor compared to Chen is what you're saying ;)

    The video description had a brief bit of info on the bigger guy but it doesn't name him
     
  19. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    How is it a 'massive cop out'? There is a HUGE variation in the way that people train Taiji, and the reasons why they do it. You seem to be trying to create some uniform 'standard' that everyone is supposed to adhere to. That is completely artificial and arbitary.

    Acceptable to whom? To them, or to you?
     
  20. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It's not arbitrary, it's the subject of the thread.

    To them. Again - the subject of the thread.

    A reminder: "Does Tai Chi really take years of training before it can be of practical use in a combat setting?"
     

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