The strange case of Kime

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Nabil Kazama, Aug 11, 2015.

  1. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Only if you don't like your hands.
     
  2. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Makiwaras tend to be a bit controversial on MAP. A lot of people don't like them and fear they can really mess your hands up.

    I'm one of those that believes they're fine to use as long as they are padded appropriately and you are careful as to how you use it.

    How the makiwara is installed and what it is made of also makes a big difference. It's one thing to use the side of an old tractor tyre, it's another to use a piece of wood screwed onto the side of a car tyre with padding - and it's another thing altogether to just use any random bit of wood you have and start punching it (not a good idea).

    But to be honest, you can get the same kinds of benefits (including observing how the strike connects) if you have a decent heavy bag hanging up.
     
  3. Nabil Kazama

    Nabil Kazama New Member

    I'd get some pads and maybe a bag then. I want to master line ssssoooo badly. It's worth more to me than a black belt or a Dan rank, Keinosuke Enoeda once said "Karate without Kime is not true Karate."

    I'm a 1st Kyu and don't even know how to hit a pad/target properly.
     
  4. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Better yet, go to a boxing/Muay Thai class and learn how to punch from them.
     
  5. VoidKarateka

    VoidKarateka Valued Member

    I second hitting (pardon the pun) a boxing gym. You can learn to punch in Karate for sure but you have no choice but to learn how to apply a good punch in boxing.

    A decent heavy bag is a good start though if you're at home. I don't recommend machiwara training if you've never done it before unless you've got some solid and experienced supervision. It doesn't take a lot to mess up and end up with permanent injuries. I really don't recommend using one of those wall screw in machiwara either, they're incredibly dangerous in my opinion.
     
  6. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    That's worrying.

    Although you will learn to punch at boxing/kickboxing I get the impression that you want to stay in karate. I'd look for a new dojo.
     
  7. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I'd 3rd this one. A good karate club will help you be really fast on your feet and develop nice, rapid movement. But there's no substitution to actually trying to hit targets or having to hit targets whilst being attacked honestly in return. Most karate clubs simply don't offer the same kind of experience even your average boxing club can.

    Agreed. I think some of the MAPpers like Simon may have done some basic bag work tutorials.

    Failing that, there's a chap on YouTube called JT Van V who you should absolutely check out. Amazing channel.

    I've never been a fan of the ones you buy online that is screwed into the wall. It's basically a bit of stiff foam between you and hitting the wall behind. Makiwaras need to have some flexibility and "give" to them so as to help develop good technique. Otherwise you might as well just tape a cushion to a wall and hit that*.

    *No, I'm not saying anyone should do that. That would be stupid.

    The barest minimum I would accept would be a sturdy (but thin) piece of wood screwed into the side of a tyre (into the soft inner rubber, not always into the top - you have to allow some compression) along with a generous piece of padding on the top (I've used a large piece of foam with a stiffer piece of foam strapped on the top, which worked quite well).

    All that said, I still think hanging bags and pads are much more versatile and a better use of time
     
  8. Nabil Kazama

    Nabil Kazama New Member

    I really don't want to stop Shotokan, but would a bit of
    Boxing help my karate? I mean will it so no harm?
     
  9. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    It won't interfere with your technique particularly much (if at all) but it should help broaden your horizons and give you a differing insight into how to apply your strikes, distancing, etc.
     
  10. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    It depends on how ingrained your Shotokan is and how good you are at identifying and isolating worthwhile principles without compromising core elements of that training.

    I've seen people with very little training successfully marry but also keep separate different approaches, but I've also seen more experienced people reveal how superficial their ability and knowledge was by failing to understand and keep separate very different mechanics.
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    What I found helpful is to believe all mechanics are the same, but you emphasize different aspects of the mechanics depending on the context and your abilities.

    For example, one mechanic is that the elbow and shoulder move together when you punch. You don't move your elbow first and then shoulder and you don't move your shoulder first and then elbow. They move together. If you don't, you not only lose structure, which loses power, but you also risk telegraphing your punches.

    For aspects of this mechanic, in boxing the shoulder movement is usually much more pronounced than in karate, but nevertheless, the mechanic is the same... elbow and shoulder move together.

    This is one of the very reasons why what JWT said in his previous post is so relevant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    :eek: Don't even go there, girlfriend! :p
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    And here's a video I saw today, that I think is relevant to your point:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6n5YWwSzcQ"]A Brief Look at Power Generation in Martial Arts Striking - YouTube[/ame]
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    :eek:

    Well I would say an isolated shoulder isn't part of power generation. That's why the shoulder needs to move together with the elbow for power generation. The shoulder movement can be small or big, and the elbow movement can be small or big... it is just they move together (are connected).

    I'm really more of a beginner when it comes to Tai Chi, so I'm awed by what I think are good videos, but maybe I don't know the difference. I like this one:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSYr5VxYwI"]Tai Chi Push-hands Tutorial 1-4 - YouTube[/ame]

    I think it shows the connection that must be kept between the shoulder and elbow between 20:50-21:53. This is the same in push hands as in striking.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Of course. It's the timing of the chain that gives power.
     
  17. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i thought i'd posted here back in page 1 but apparently my tablet ate the post :(

    going waaaay back to what i originally wanted to say, i think tension is a dumb term. kime to me is more like effective force transfer (see bassai's post about hitting something with a hammer). for this you need an overall movement along an appropriate direction (for obvious reasons), and firmness (because you hit with your body, which is a multi-jointed system at any joint of which power can bleed through and not go into the next segment and eventually the target). some degree of joint stabilizing tension is necessary for the latter, hence the cue for "tensing at the end" while hitting the air (which is dumb, you should be made to be able to effectively hit something from the very first lesson), but is actually counterproductive for the former (it reduces speed). emphasizing tension by itself when it is only a part of stabilization (tension for all practical purposes referring to simultaneous contraction of opposing muscle groups to prevent motion at a joint) and not actually hitting anything can lead to tension at inappropriate parts of a movement and/or a flawed movement pattern presumed correct because you tense at the end (at which, as the term implies, the movement is finished and you're not actually doing anything) while the force delivery is inexistent. tensing at the end does help to stop the movement before absolute extension, which prevents elbow damage that would otherwise accumulate over time. this is also the very last thing you want in an effective punch, stopping which should only be done by the physical obstacle of the other guy's face :p (and which in a good tsuki generally happens approximately at 75% extension, give or take 10%-ish)
     
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think that is a very good reason to simply the chain, because then there is less chance of messing up the timing. :cool:
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I would debate that it isn't 75% extension but 75% range of motion. Take a 1-inch punch, the arm is mostly extended already passed 75% before you even strike, but within the range of motion, the strike is at 75%, more or less.
     
  20. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    A 1-inch punch isn't an effective strike outside of the movie theatre.
     

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