Someone on MAP recently referred to Judo hold downs being techniques that might have been employed "on the battlefield by Samurai"!! Albeit slightly naive, I think this comment shows that many sporting Judoka think of a pin as "ending" a fight in the context of competition scoring. I think when originally taught by Kano his intention was that they were a transitional technique before using shime-waza (chokes) or kansetsu-waza (arm bars/locks). I always look for the opportunity to develop a pin to a submission in my training but not alot of instructors teach students this mindset. IMO its really the whole point of osae-komi. Any thoughts? Anyone know of any web links with examples showing the transition from pin to submission?
Why would I want to come out of a successful hold down to try and attempt a submission? Ok it can mean the fight is over quicker so you can save energy, but unless there is a clear opening for the attack, is it really worth taking the risk? Ok, so Kano used pins as a means to get a submission via shime-waza (chokes) or kansetsu-waza (arm bars/locks). Kano didn't invent pins! I'm pretty sure that they were being used before that, possibly with different motives.
In the context of 'the battlefield' because the comrades of the guy your pinning are going to cut your arms off Col
In a competition situation, yes you would not necessarily have a reason to come out of a hold down but in a MA/self-defence situation you should be looking for the submission or consequence of the technique to escape the situation. Obviously Kano did not invent pins, he learnt them doing JJ before he developed Judo. In JJ the motive is to move on from the pin to cause your opponent some damage though chokes, locks or punches/kicks.
A pin is a submission. If they aren't hurting, you're not holding them right. Every time they breathe out, squeeze on their chests a little more. Put your arms in their faces, stick an elbow in their stomachs, at least put them in am arm-bar or choke at the same time! A hold-down is a choke with more body control.
They were part of Samurai Battlefield tactics. The guard for instance, was to hold the enemy until back up could arrive, and then stab him in the back with the Katana, etc. Osae is VERY vital, not just to Judo, but to the Martial Arts in general...
I admit that being on the receiving end of a Judo osae-komi is not a nice place to be especially if the person applying it is heavy and strong. However, outside the Judo dojo in a NHB/street situation I reckon that 9/10 I could escape osae-komi if I struggled like hell, kicked, punched, gouged etc etc. So my point is from a MA perspective if you are applying osae-komi you'd want to develop it into something more painful, from which your opponent is unable to escape. I've never done BJJ but they seem to have this mindset - they emphasise getting into the mount (sitting astride your opponent), then developing a lock/bar or choke from there.
there are actually submissions in osae komi waza. These were the first submissions taught to us in my judo class. IMO, if you wanna learn transitioning from a pin to a submission and some counters, BJJ is probably the best art to study in terms of this aspect of grappling
Pins and turn-overs are far better in Judo than they are in BJJ because they are practiced alot more their. Col
are you talking about turnovers, meaning rolling the opponent to a certain position or sweeps? I think the one pin that judokas have over BJJ practitioners is kesa gatame since it is rarely used in BJJ
Turnovers are pretty much taking a turtling opponent and puttin him on his back. More practiced in Judo than BJJ, also the pins in Judo tend to be better as they are practiced as an end as of themselves, not an entrance to a sub.
I agree, turn-overs and pins are practised plenty in Judo. The problem I have is that pins are taught at most Judo clubs purely for competition - 25 sec and its ippon - the end. IMO some pins although effective for holding an opponent down for a limited time, its not "the end". They leave the head/ribs/groin fairly exposed and therefore, in an MA context, not ideal. If you are squeezing hard and are careful at protecting vulnerable areas I guess most punches/gouges would be relitively weak and you could shrug them off - but I would prefer to be in a position where I was the one dishing out the pain in sufficient quantities that nothing would be coming back.
breaking the turtle has been practiced in both BJJ and judo but judokas usually practice this more as some competitors use this technique to stall during a competition in an attempt to get a matte so that they restart, which in BJJ the clock will still be running even if you turtle
And in BJJ we'd have more options available to us rather than just the turn over i.e knee bars, heel hooks. Col
Bjj'ers don't practice pins as such, because in bjj we don't think of them as pins; they're dominant positions. What makes them dominant is that from them we can attack with joint locks, chokes, and (if we chose to) strikes. We don't practice maintaining the position for its own sake as done in Judo, but only for the advantages for winning the fight that position give us. But as far as positional control goes, I'd argue that bjj is better for it, in that we don't get stood up by refs, or awarded a win after a measly 25 seconds.
BJJ actually practices securing pins as to get the dominant position then going for a setup to a submission. IN fact, it is rare nowadays that BJJ practitioners use a kesa gatame when in fact, it is a very secure hold and it is the hardest to escape from. There are also a number of submissions you can get from this hold
yup. i usually start with a kesa gatame, ushiro kesa gatame, or yoko shiho gatame. the bout usually ends in a kimura or a choke.
