The Messer...

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Crackin' new youtube video clip by the Gladiatores -
    "The pieces of fencing shown here are our interpretations of the corresponding pieces from the Fechtbuch by Johannes Lecküchner and the Codex Wallerstein".

    [ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ[/ame]

    Louie
     
  2. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    Once again, historical European martial arts are really, really cool in my opinion.
     
  3. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Some of those messers are about the same size as my gladius Hispanus.
     
  4. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Agreed. Any male who didn't fantasize about this kind of stuff as a child had something wrong with them or never learned about it.
     
  5. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    one thing that stands out for me and keeps standing out is the winding at the blade. Its all though medieval swordsmanship. To a certain extent we see sword play taking place at zufechten but so much more occurs at kreig.
     
  6. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    That's a pretty slick vid. Some of the stuff was out of range for safety's sake, but overall, very nice. You can tell they've put a lot of work into that. I've just started messer myself, and I find it very satisfying. It's almost as cool as longsword! ;)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  7. Terao

    Terao Valued Member

    Almost aye? nothing quite like a longsword lol. I've been following Western swordsmanship ever since I started martial arts a few years ago and at the moment while learning various japanese weapons, i'm still drawn to western styles but schools and clubs seem to be limited in my section of the world. However seeing those videos brings a nice smile to my face with the effort that they put into it.
     
  8. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    The UK is a veritable hotbed of western swordsmanship these days. If you dig hard enough, you might find someone eventually, and your current training will help you as well. Here in Calgary, there are two H.E.S. schools that I know of, and a Pankration group. Keep in mind Calgary's a cultural backwater also... so if it can be found here, it can be found anywhere! :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  9. Terao

    Terao Valued Member

    True although yorkshire might be more of a cultural blackspot lol. :D
     
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    I was impressed with the vid. Nicely done.

    I've been kicking around the idea of moonlighting a smidge of messer in support of my Bowie knife study (the same reason that I now study Military Saber). I've had good reports concerning it's applicability. And, you've got to admit, in relation to design elements, the "classic" bowie is very much a shrunk down messer.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  11. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Alright, I have a question for you guys that play with sharp things on a regular basis. I'm baffled when I see swordfighters grabbing the blade and using the hilt as a club. I'm not talking about the ricasso, I'm talking about the main blade closer to the tip, as shown in the video. Obviously it's not the primary use for the weapon, but I have to wonder about the danger of cutting your own fingers. I imagine if you've been fighting for more than a few minutes your palms will be a bit sweaty, ya know?
     
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Western swordsmen usually wear gloves. Also the blades aren't usually very sharp.

    The Bear.
     
  13. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    my favourite is the murder stroke - a big b@stard sword with large crosspiece used as a pickaxe on someones head ... very nasty but as Bear says swords were not that sharp - western swords tend to be chopping weapons, not slashing ones.
     
  14. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    The cleaved skull in the Kelvingrove and this one which is slightly rougher;
    [​IMG]
    Suggests that some nasty spoilsports where carrying extremely sharp swords

    The guys in the medieval illustrations (and video) were probably training with dull blades - when it came to grabbing a blade in earnest they would have worn gauntlets.

    Louie
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Louie,
    tbh you could do that injury with a semi-sharp sword. We're not saying the swords were rebated but they weren't sharp like a katana. Also European sword tended to be of a softer steel somewhere around RC48-52 whereas Katanas edge went from RC56-60. The softer steel is harder to keep a razor edge on it but it would still do the job and be able to take alot more punishment in continual use.

    The Bear.
     
  16. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    There's a German 2 handed execution sword in the archive's at Kelvingrove, like a 4ft long double edged razor blade gives me the creeps just looking at it.
     
  17. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Dave
    My point is that not all Western swords were dull or semi-sharp but also razor sharp - and can still be gripped. It all comes down to the sword’s intended purpose -- thrusting swords are not intended for cutting, so some may not even have an edge at all, just a well-defined and reinforced point. Others, like the messer, had a different purpose....
    Would a schnitt (draw cut - ideal for the messer) do any deep damage sufficient enough to end an encounter if the blade were semi-sharp (how sharp is semi sharp?) particularly when your drawing the sword towards you and there's not a lot of force - then there's the opponents thick clothing, padded armour or a buff leather coat?

    As to the softer steel it would only mean having to sharpen your sword more often than your Japanese counterpart - with no TV they had time on their hands:)

    Louie
     
  18. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    The .454mm edge on my schiavona was deemed dangerous and would open people up if I hit them square on. Edges dont have to be razor sharp to cause havoc in flesh, even Napoleonic period sabres were'nt particularly sharp but the motion of the blade on flesh would slice like a Tescos deli counter ham slicer!
     
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    blunt is a butter knife
    Semi-sharp is the edge you would fine on a household stake knife.
    Sharp is a house hold utility knife for slicing vegetables.
    razor sharp is a scapel or in bear tongue (stupid sharp).

    I would say that the most european swords would have been about as sharp as a household utility knife. They just weren't stupid sharp like a katana.

    With softer steel it's also more difficult to get a stupid sharp edge.

    The Bear.
     
  20. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    The simple fact of the matter is, if you do it right, you won't cut yourself, gloves or no. If you've got gloves, there's no problem at all. If you don't, as long as the blade doesn't slip, you're golden. On youtube, there's a clip of me dragging my teacher around while he grips the blade of my Albion Earl. Youtube is blocked at my workplace, but look for "sword tug of war".

    Also, in Europe (and presumably elsewhere) some people would use differential sharpening on their longswords, so that the tip would be sharper than the midpoint and so on. It's not necessarily the same sharpness all the way down. You'd sharpen it the way you liked it. If you didn't have massive callouses on your hands (and they help a lot), then you could customize your blade sharpness accordingly.

    As long as the blade is sharp enough to do a decent draw-cut if you apply a good amount of strength, it doesn't have to be any sharper. There's no point in having something razor sharp just for the hell of it. It'll get wrecked in real fighting in no time. A blade should be sharp enough to damage the opponent, and dull enough to put up with some abuse.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     

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