The meaning of kali

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by buddafinger, Oct 22, 2006.

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  1. D.Smothers

    D.Smothers Valued Member

    The art is not of spanish origin, it was around way before the spanish occupied the Philipines
     
  2. buddafinger

    buddafinger Valued Member

    There is an ancient Arabic word Khali referring to trouble makers and outcasts within the clan. Dont know if this has any relavance
     
  3. oosh

    oosh Valued Member

    "The art is not of spanish origin, it was around way before the spanish occupied the Philipines"

    That is not the issue being discussed here. The discussion is on whether the art was referred to as 'kali'.
     
  4. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Floro V. is the person about the fame of the blind Princess, it has been mentioned by others but I believe it is where the art came from and the name.

    It might have been from the muslim arts of silat or the southern style of the Filipines, I have mentioned early on about the northern style also, something that has not been mentioned is the style of the Negrito's which could actually be the origin.

    It is a puzzle but if we discuss it hopefully it will be found. According to Guro Dan I. , he is happy and he feels he has found it.

    I believe Mark V. Wiley sort of screwed it up at first, I looked and found the book about Kalis "Tatang" style, I do have it in my library of books. I will look at it tonight.

    Gary
     
  5. Black_Grass

    Black_Grass Valued Member

    Pat O,

    All I know is this. I am offend that you call your art Rapid 'Arnis' when most of your teachers are from Cebu, you should call it Rapid Eskrima. :)

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  6. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    Estocada refers to a specific swordplay and not the whole spectrum of Filipino sword fighting methods. Indigenous sword/weapon fighting methods had different names mainly because of diverse origins (tribes/clans/families). They existed even before the Castillians stamped their terms on them. But the question remains... when and where was the term kali (referring to a fighting system/method) first used? We can't just say that "my dad said siddharta was the origin of kali before he became a buddha and he used it to conquer mongolia and all of southeast asia where he met the blind princess and impregnated her and whose descendants can still be traced in iloilo and negros". Can we? We have to weave a better story.
     
  7. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I am going to have to play the devils advocate on this one.

    That is good, the more referance we can find on the FMA the better I always say and if you do get the chance to remember were you seen this text refering to 'kali a filipino fighting arts' that could not be found today will give us more information for researching the original source of the actual term and where it came from.

    I am a firm beleiver that if the Pinoys wish to find a term for the FMA that is strictly Filipino then that is good, there is nothing wrong with seeking out a peronal Unfide identity.

    If the majority choose to say the 'Kali' is the generic term that should be used then great, not a problem, but as long as we are honest about how the term came about and why it ius used at least we can say we are honest about it. Lets not go down the road of saying that Kali is superiour to Arnis or Eskrima when if we are truthfull, there are in fact one and the same thing. Hence the majority of us can say Kali, Eskrima,Arnis, Estokada, Pangomot, Pangolisi, Kalis etc, etc, in the same breath when talking about the same art. But also let's not ignore the Spanish infulence on the art as a whole just because we do not wish to admit that they have played a major role in the development of the art as we see it today.

    No one of the FMA terms has superiority over the other, they are all the same and mean the same thing, Filipino Martial Arts. And no one term should claim to be superiour to the other. So yes maybe it is about time we came up with a unified term that describes the art as a whole, a term such as is being used now. FMA maybe.

    For instance. Karate or China Hand later re-named to Empty Hand originated in China then brought to Okinawa and Finally ended up in Japan. Is it Kung Fu from China. No of course not. It is Japanese Martial Arts.

    So therefore the Spanish Sword play that has so infulenced the FMA should not be considered Spanish MA, it is in it's own unique way Filipino martial arts regardless of what name you call it.

    Kung Fu or CMA started it's life in India possibly what we know today as Kalari Payat (SP?) but finally became CMA. Does this make all CMA Indian MA. No, of course not. It is still CMA.

    The FMA I am sure existed befoer the Spanish invasion, but what I am also sure of is this. It changed after the Spanish invasion to a whole new thing, which is what we see today which is called Eskrima, Kali, Arnis etc, etc.

    As I have said, the Spanish influence is there, but let's be honest it is not just in words, it also has to be in teaching methods and fighting techniques, more than some would like to admit.

    We have to also realise that the Spanish trained the local populace to fend off periodical attacks from the Moro tribes in the south as they did not have the resources to fend them off al by themselves, therefore they would have trained the local malicia (SP?) in there own fighting methods and this in turn would have been adopted and adapted to there native fighting skills, after all you cannot forget something you have been taught, even if it is not effective and the Spanish sword fighting skills is well known to be very effective. We also have to remember that not all Filipino's fought against the Spanish invadors otherwise they would not have been able to occupy the islands for over 300 years.

    Now there is also nothing worng with that, as the majority of the world see Martial Arts in relation to DAN Grades, but does this mean we now have to adopt Japanese terminoligy within FMA becuase that is what the pulic recognise? If this is so, why can we not accept that the term 'Kali' is a more modern terminoligy, but with a Filipino flavour (until proven otherwise that is).

    But that depends on whether you beleive in God, some would argue that there is only one God, otheres would say, like the Hindu's that ther are many and others would argue that there is no God, but until someone can give us absolute proof, we will never know. Much the same as people claiming that Kali is the Mother art of all things FMA.

    I am sure it was but was it called KALI? And what we see and recognise today as FMA (be it called Kali, Eskrima, Arnis, Estokada, Pangomot, Pananandata Pangolisi, etc) is that what was taught before the Spanish Invasion? Or is what we see something else?

    There is a lot of debate on whether the Blind Princess actually existed and so far the evidance is leaning more towrds the 'Myth and Ledgend' side of things as opposed to factual history. But, I would be interested to read your findings and check out any refereance you have when I once again travel back to the Philippines this year.

    YBIFMA

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2006
  8. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Lapunti ARNIS De Abanico, Modern ARNIS, Balintawak ARNIS to name but a few, I also trained in quite a few systems that used the terms Kali or Eskrima. At the end of the day, whether you cal it Arnis, Eskrima or Kali, it is still one and the same thing FMA.

    The whole point is that no one term should supercede the other, they are in today's society one and the same thing which is when RAPID ARNIS was formed and none of the instructors I have trained with have every objected to the name I use.

    Not all ARNIS comes from Luzon and not all ESKRIMA comes from Cebu in fact when you go to Cebu, most of the general public only know what you say when you say ARNIS. So even if I called it Hong Kong Ping Pong Gone Wrong it is just a name but it's history can be traced, and that is the whole point and no one name is superiour to the other and until proven otherwise, no one term is older than the other.

    Put it this way, if I had decided to invent the name Kali and then decided to call my group Rapid Kali, and then everyone started using 'Kali' as a generic term for FMA if them someone said where did the term 'Kali' come from at least I could say it came about in 1993 when Rapid Kali was formed. That would be it's history. But I chose Arnis as this is the Generic name that most of the populas know the FMA as.

    All that is being ask by many, including those in the PI is where did the name KALI come from.

    No one is saying it is wrong, they are just trying to find out the truth of whether it was once used on a national scale, why is it not used in a national scale now, and why is there no archiological or historical referance to it now.

    Regards

    Pat
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Put it this way, is there any archiological evidance to show thay the term ARNIS was ever used to descibe any other martial art out side the Philippines and was this before the term KALI? or after?

    And if as many would have claimed the fighting skills of the Philippines originated from what we now know as Malaysia and Indonesia why do we not use the term *insert style name here* SILAT

    Just curious

    YBIFMA

    Pat
     
  10. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Hi Pat ,Kali are been there before the spanish just like Latin word in english ex. thermae in english thermal.We cannot find archeological evidence of that you know it well and i don not tell that estoccada is really a spanish style everybody in the world know how to thrust even they do not study fencing or arnis i can also called it O Malley arnis .We filipino we also named our style to name of our teachers we do not care we callit from any defferent style what we are talking about is how the name kali exist .We must all practitioner of FMA must give us some example to find out everything.I can called also kali-estoccada that what i believed ther is nothing wrong either you named it rapid,extreme,deadly etcetera.W HO BELIEVES YOU THAT THEY BANNED THE USED OF WEAPONS AND THEY WILL TEACHED THEIR ARTS. at that their guns and cannons already and they are hidding with their fortress,they fooled thier converts to fight their pagans countrymen.Their is a strong influence of the religion they brought i the Philippines, do you think that only those of the southern do juramentado even cristian do it thier .Do you think can occupied the natives their with only for swordfighting for how many centuries they do not just simple and logical thoughts may deserve. MABUHAY
     
  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Kalislash,
    Well that is a tough one to get through, but I believe it is worth reading a few more times to be able to discover the essence. But meanwhile I will answer Pat.

    The year is almost over when are you going to Cebu? Check the "negrito" for there is the answer, I am thinking. They have been there for a long time.
    The ability to converse with them is hard but I feel to search in that way is the best.

    Why? Because it is the least known. The tale of the princess might be a legend to some but to others who know such as My Sensei, (Pat Kelly Elk Grove CA) there is no doubt, for you can do the "panantukan" with him and he can have his eyes closed and still prevail. :eek:

    Training is the answer then you will also believe. These people were night persons and not much light, it only stands to reason that it is a worthy style.

    My Sensei knows, he is that good. :)

    Gary
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Of course you can, and that is the point, it is not about styles using the name Kali. I personally see nothing wrong with that, the same way I see no reason why you cannot use Eskrima, Arnis etc etc to describe the FMA. But as you know when one claims that a certain word (and it is only a word) makes their style superiour to all others and superceeds all of them this is where individuals question. Arguments ensue and challenge matches take place all over a simple word. So in order to stop pointless arguments over a simple word one must ask the real reason of a word and how and when it came about, even if it is to silence the doubters.

    As I have said, you can call it Hong Kong Ping Pong Gone Wrong it does not matter, and yes we are all looking for the answer as to how Kali the word in relation to the FMA came into existance.

    My point exactely if only to satisfy our curiosity we need to find out the truth whether we like the answer or not.

    Absolutely I agree and so I am sure does everyone else.

    Yes their guns and Cannon will have played a major role, but more importantly will be the co-opperation of some of the locals, as without this before the use of long range missles, machine gins and tanks, their guns and cannon will have only had an effect on a limited scale. For example, look how effective the weapons of today are in Iraq, it is still limited and without the help of the local populace it will be successfull for a limited time.

    Of course not, help from others in within the Philippines would have been required.

    I will try my best and ask others if they have had the chance to do this in the past.

    I'm impressed, that I would like to see. But their are as you know, some who say it is legend and their are those who beleive it to be true, would'nt it be nice to actually show factual referance to the doubters in order to silence your critics?

    Training is the answer to all things in Martial Arts, without it we would all be useless.

    The versions I have heard I have not heard mention that they were night people and where were they from, please tell me more.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Negrito of Filipines

    It is rumored they have been in these Island 20,000 years or more. They are related to the Pygmy of Africa, very small people and they are on the smaller islands remote and almost impenetrable forests.

    They live very secluded, are very clan oriented, they use poison on all there weapons and are very good with the blow gun. Very Primitive. They want nothing to do with our civilization.

    Still are Cannibal's it is still practised in these remote parts of Indonesia and and the Filipines. They consider it an honor to eat good warriors, for they feel it will make them better warriors. It is a way of honoring them by keeping the head's. It's like we hang a picture of a hero or some one we have vanquished, on a wall.

    These are things I have read and found out from old masters and men who talked to their old Grandfathers and it is like many things in the Filipines, not written, but oral, that is how they learned, by doing not talking.

    Ben Largusa mentiond this to me, he is very old and knowledgable. I wish his son was closer, for that is the art, I truly want to study now.

    Regards,
    Gary
     
  14. Black_Grass

    Black_Grass Valued Member


    Pat,

    Just in case it was lost in translation, I was joking. Just making fun of others ( not you) who get all bent out of shape in regards to labels and the FMA.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  15. Black_Grass

    Black_Grass Valued Member


    Yes and No. Although, Estocada can be specifically used in regrads to an art that is played with garotte ( flat sword shape stick). It is also used generically.

    I remember watching a dog brothers video ( 1st series) a few years back and my Tita Eling (RIP) was staying with us, when she saw what I was watching on video she said "oh estocada" not escrima or arnis. Now at the time she was prob. about 91 was and was born around 1910. She was a mestisa (pinoy-tsinoy) cebuano living in Mindanao ( Ozamis and Bukidnon) for most of her life. I found her comment intresting considering she was very old and a non martial artist.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006
  16. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I know Brother, I was answering for the benifit of those who get all bent out of shape to, just to show that I have trained under many FMA names and regard them all equally. No one being superiour to the other.

    I was also trying to point out to those who would have you beleive otherwise that it is not as easy as stating that "Arnis being from the Northern Philippines, Eskrima being from Central Philippines and Kali comming from Southern Philippines" This to is just a myth.

    YBIFMA

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    English Wikipedia: The theory of the connection to Africa collapsed the moment the first unbiased scientific observers met living Andamanese Negritos face to face.

    Apart from dark skin and curly hair, they have little in common with any African population, including the African pygmies. There are, however, a few fascinating connections to the Khoisan of South Africa.

    While we can thus be quite sure that the Negritos are not Africans (except in the way all of us Homo sapiens originated in Africa) - Clear archaeological evidence found so far of Negrito settlements in the Andamans does not go back more than 2,200 years but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    Besides, there is now little doubt that the Negrito race represents an ancient, if not the most ancient, component in the prehistoric peopling of Asia by anatomically modern humans. As such they could go back 70,000 years.

    The Negritos of the Philippines could make fire, whereas the Andamanese could not, as of 1911. The Semang are recorded to have made clothing of pounded tree bark, and to have lived in both caves and leaf-covered shelters.

    English Wikipedia: They are likely the indigenous people of south-east Asia, including New Guinea. Pygmy-sized, they are numerically and physically among the smallest as well as among the least-known of all living human races.

    That would depend on which tribe you are talking about, there are very few Cannibal and head hunting tribes left in the whole of South East Asia. I have spent just over a week back in the mid 80's living with such a tribe in Borneo and there is more to them than that.

    But in order to pass on some knowledge you have to also talk and when you talk someone somewhere will make a record, that is human nature. So there has to be more information out there, does there not? Even if it where the Friars making referance to the Indio (as they were known to the Spanish) peoples and any interation or reaction to them.

    Also many Pinoy's have travelled the islands of the Philippines and talked to the Grandfathers and Grandmothers who never left the islands and some very interesting stories have been told that are contrary to some of the more popular Stories we hear in the Martial Arts Magazines and Books that have been released in the West.

    People love mysticism in martial arts and there are some who have painted a colourful picture of some things. They maybe based on fact (we have yet to prove that) but it is like Chinese Whispers, the further down the line we travel the more exciting and colourful the story becomes. After all they do say all myths and ledgends are based at least a little on some small truth.

    Did you also know that: English Wikipedia: Spanish rule on the Philippines was briefly interrupted in 1762, when British troops invaded and occupied the islands as a result of Spain's entry into the Seven Years' War. The Treaty of Paris of 1763 restored Spanish rule and in 1764 the British left the country fearing another costly war with Spain. The brief British occupation weakened Spain's grip on power and sparked rebellions and demands for independence

    It was also known that the British helped to train many of the revolutinaries after they left in order to cause un-rest with the Spanish occupation. So we even have to look at some of the British sword fighting skills that may have been passed on to our FMA brothers. As even during this time with gun and cannon the majority of the fight ended up in hand to hand and blade to blade combat.

    If you truely want to study that art then I am sure you will find a way.

    So let's look at it another way.

    English Wikipedia: For the Negritos themselves the term has no meaning since they know themselves only by their local tribal names and are not (yet) aware that they may belong to a people called "Negrito". (See List of Philippine-related topics#Tribes and ethnic groups for a systematic list of their tribes and peoples, and Andaman Islands for a description of the Andamanese tribes.)

    Now even the best archiologists and historians agree the the Filipino as we know them today are originally of Indo/Malay peoples and the Negritos are the original inhabitants of the islands. The Negrito's make up a very tiny percentage of the population.

    Now ask yourself this. When the Indo/Malay people Invaded the Philippine Islands did they not push these indigenous people further into the deeper parts of the rain forest, most of these people even today do not interact with those outside there tribe. Now why would they pass on their knowledge of Combat to the then invadors????

    Why is it easy to accept that the Indigenous people of that time passed on knowledge to their invadors e.g. the Indo/Malay and not so easy to accept that a more recent invador may have passed on some knowledge to the now indigenous people e.g. The Filipino? Something does not sit quite right with that, don't you think?

    It is like our freind 'kalishash' has said. "I eat both". But would you still not like to know for certain which came first, the chicken or the egg? But until we can 'Prove It', we will never really know and therefore cannot make claims to the contrary And just have to accept that all the terms used are equal (until proven otherwise).

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    More information regarding the Philippines

     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006
  19. AK-47

    AK-47 New Member

    I am really disapointed, they must think I am a poor warrior then cause they didn't eat me when I visited them....

    Kidding aside the negritos are among the most peacefull peoples living in the Philippines. Unfortunately they are disapearing...
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Now let's look at another myth about the 'Mother Art' Thoery and the claims that 'Kali' is originally a Muslim Art. The myth that the Philippines was Muslim when Magellan first arrived in Cebu in 1521.

    English Wikipedia: Negrito, proto-Malay, and Malay peoples were the principal peoples of the Philippine archipelago. Later migrations were by water and took place over several thousand years.

    The social and political organization of the population, in the widely scattered islands, evolved into a generally common pattern. Only the permanent-field rice farmers of northern Luzon had any concept of territoriality. The basic unit of settlement was the barangay, originally a kinship group headed by a datu (chief). Within the barangay, the broad social divisions consisted of the maharlika (nobles), including the datu; timawa (freemen); and a group described before the Spanish period as dependents. Dependents included several categories with differing status: landless agricultural workers; those who had lost freeman status because of indebtedness or punishment for crime; and alipin (slaves), most of whom appear to have been war captives.

    Islam was brought to the Philippines by traders and proselytizers from the Indonesian islands. By the 16th century, Islam was established in the Sulu Archipelago and spread from there to Mindanao; it had reached the Manila area by 1565. (Europeans first arrived in the Philippine Islands with the Spanish expedition around the world led by Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan in 1521. Magellan landed on the island of Cebu, claiming the lands for Spain and naming them Islas de San Lazaro. Other Spanish expeditions were dispatched to the islands. In 1543 (before the Muslim faith had reached Manila), Ruy López de Villalobos led an expedition to the islands and gave the name Las Islas Felipinas (after Philip II of Spain) to the islands of Samar and Leyte. The name would later be given to the entire archipelago.)

    English Wikipedia: Muslim immigrants introduced a political concept of territorial states ruled by rajas or sultans who exercised suzerainty over the datu. Neither the political state concept of the Muslim rulers nor the limited territorial concept of the sedentary rice farmers of Luzon, however, spread beyond the areas where they originated. When the Spanish arrived in the 16th century, the majority of the estimated 500,000 people in the islands lived in barangay settlements.

    Now again we have to look at the fact there no one has yet found a 'Muslim Kali Master' which is where just one portion of the 'Mother Art explaintion' falls flat on it's face.

    We have to also bear in mind that in any conflict, cross polinization if fighting techniques will occur and if their was such a thing as Kali amongst the Negrito peoples when the Indo/Malay people first inhabited the islands, this would be our first point of cross polinization and without a doubt would change what it originally was.

    The seconed point of cross polinization would be from further settlements of Chinese peoples who even if they managed to peacefully settle, some conflict will have occure. even though it may have been minor some change to the fighting skills of the now Indo/Malay (Filipino) peoples would have occured.

    The next major cross polinization would have had to occur once the Spanish had decided to domintate the islands, whether it be by them training local malicia of by major conflict, each sides skills would have had to adapt to the conflicts in hand and therefore the FMA as we know it today must have been influenced by the Spanish MA and vice versa.

    So if there was a 'Mother Art' I am pretty sure that it would only slightley resemble what it originally was, it would have had to adpat over the various confrontations and in doing so would physically change.

    If the 'Mother Art' was 'Kali' as claimed, then surely it would look vastly different from the art we also call Arnis / Eskrima when if we are truthfull they are all 3, one and the same thing and no one can yet prove the 'Mother Art' theory.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006
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