The meaning of kali

This again is were there lay's a lot of controversy and begs the question, to which filipino language are we talking about?

As we have found out via research in one launguage Kali can mean one thing, in another something else and in yet another noting at all.

Or are we saying that all filipino's once spoke one launguage, and if that is so, which one?

Best regards

Pat

 

Hi all,
I was reading in several books of late that the Chinese moved into the Filipines big time and swarmed over Luzon almost completly engulfing the indigent population in several waves, over thousands of years.

If that is true you have to wonder what part of China speaks something close to Tagalog, or another langauage that is in the area of Luzon.

They also mention the amount that ended up in the area we know as Indonesia and from a different part of China. Very interesting where they are going with the way the asian areas are populated by different parts of China. Same thing in Japan and the northern Island. Coming by way of Korea thousands of years ago.

One thing is they were Hairy faced not the chinese of today they considered them more western looking like the people of the Jomon era. They brought the iron age to the Filipines, something to read for infromation. remember prior to this time the area had less water in the oceans and it was about 100 Feet lower than today.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2131.html

Similar time frame.
I am sure if you go to a museum in Manilla about Anthropology of the Filipines, they have the answer.

Gary

 

We cannot go back to the past we can only remember the past ,most who really filipino master who practice the art refers kali is a native arts .No one knows really what the mother of the arts of FMA coz they do not really study the filipino arts of fighting. I was born and raised in the Philipines so i know which really who do not study the arts. MABUHAY

 

We can agree that no one can claim the term Kali as being that of the 'Mother Art' and we can also agree that some groups do use this term for a veriaty of reasons. But I have trained with real Filipino Masters for many years too and many of them do not and have never used the term Kali, so I am sure this is just a preferance thing for each individual.

It is not a question of who does and who does not use the term, or even whether it is recognised as a term for the art. The question being asked by many, including many in the PI is, how old is this term Kali with regards to FMA? how and where did it originate from? Because at the moment there is evidence that contradicts some explinations of how, why and when the term was derived and it is a question that I am sure you will agree, all FMAers want an answer to.

Surely their must be some archival evidence to show us that it is a name that has been used for Centuaries, as you can understand anyone who studies any art is always interested in any aspect, term and archiological referances to the art, but when no physical evidence is shown we have to assume that we may in fact be guilty of just assuming it is so simply because someone said so.

I am sure any serious FMAer would dearly love to be shown that one name (regardless of what it is) has been used in the past to refer to FMA. But so far no one has been able to show any evidance to back this claim made by some and denied by others, this is what has caused many unnessisary arguments in the past, hence most people now simply use the term FMA and recognise that terms such as Arnis, Eskrima and Kali are just 3 names that mean the very same thing and no one has presidence over the other.

Who knows, if enough research is done someone somehwere may find the answer, or maybe someone out there has some evidence to show either side of the debate. Who knows we may all be surprised as it may turn out to be something no one expected, but at least then we would know for sure.

Best regards

Pat

 

Kali and Inosanto

He feels pretty convinced seems to have more info everytime I go to a new seminar of his in Stockton CA that is put on by Guro Antonio E. Somera.

The lost continent of Mu, who knows? So much writen that is bad history.
If I was Filipino I would not want to embrace the eskrima or the arnis thought pattern, because it is Spanish in origin.

So I guess that is where Kali is coming from?

Gary

 

But I can count all the groups in the PI that use the term Kali in their club name, on one hand.

So it obviously is not coming from the Philippines.

Say Kali in Manila or Cebu and you just get a blank look in return. They do not know what you are on about.

Love Lucy :love:

 

I agree. The most common term used back in the Philippines is Arnis. Everybody knows what it is. They might not have seen it, but they know. And usually, when the term eskrima is used, it is always used alongside kali-eskrima. My best bud back home always used that term, 'kali-eskrima'. I used to think that it was just one term. Lol...

Today I had a (stupid) telephone job interview... the interviewer saw 'Martial Arts' bulleted under my 'Interests'. He asked which one I did... so told him the other one that I do, and then said Arnis...... he had no clue.... then I said... Eskrima?.... then I explained its a Filipino Martial Art.... 'stickfighting'... then he goes, AAHH... KALI!! Lol.....

I don't use the term kali that much... I'm more at home using the term arnis as I was accustomed to using this instead. Kali wasn't really used unless you used it as 'kali-eskrima'.

This is just based on my experience and on pinoy friends (who did arnis) back home whom I have spoken with......

I'm still interested to know where the term KALI came from though. hehe

Oh... and regarding the Chinese migration into Luzon.... I'm not really sure about that... Coz if they did, I'm sure that traces of their language would be very obvious in the current Philippine dialects. None of them sound Chinese at all. Btw, could you site sources for this Chinese migration thing? I'm curious now.

Ancient Filipinos are also thought to be most likely Borneans and Indo-Malaysians.... not really sure about Luzon coz up there they had bad ass pygmies (apparently)...

If you look at the current FIlipino language as well.... its veeerrrryyy close to Indonesian. There are still terms which are very much Indonesian (for example... the term love or lover..... in Filipino, it's SINTA..... in Indonesian... its CINTA... same pronunciation)....

Anyway... its tricky to trace these things because there really aren't any journals or anything written. People back then were, I guess, more busy producing food and babies.

Well.. this is what I think/know...

:Angel:

 

dhay

Hi,
The book that is one that cites this is "When China Ruled the Seas" by,
Louise Levathes. Another is "1421 When China Discovered America" and is on the web at 1421.tv. Good stuff. The web has many locations that have articles about it, just google and you will find...

We are not talking a few thousand years we are taking numerous waves and 10s of thousands of years. Tagalog may very well be the language???

The Negrito (pygmy) is still on numerous Islands in the Filipines there are hundreds of islands in that group. But I am sure you know that.

Good thread.
Gary

 

When post a reply to someone confused of the term kali ther is no direct meaning,i said is katutubo whish which in filipino language means native arts.I begun studying FMA with my father at the aged of eight and for almost 36 yrs. of researhed ,Those who teach FMA in the philipines some of them came from other arts.There is lot of occupation as known in history and thre is a lot of mixed people are there. So no matter whae it is today is the evolution of the arts past by generation to generation.I n the western arts are all documented but there is no direct lineage of the arts.In the real fiòlipino martial arts what-ever it takes as long is effective take it so no could hit you to the butt. MABUHAY

 

From the very beginning of the thread we all have agreed that the term Eskrima Kali Arnis or FMA all mean the same thing, yes some styles vary and concentrate on different area's of the art and there is no paticular reason for the choice of termonology other than dialects from where any paticular style originates.

What many of us are questioning is how one style discription (Kali), can claim to be the mother art over the others with no evidence that it was first or in any way superior. So looking into it as many have it has come to light that there is historical reference to Eskrima and Arnis but not Kali, how can this be when it is supposed to be the mother art? So why does it matter? It doesn't, but it does matter that some feel the need to woo their students into believing they are somehow superior to everyone else because they do Kali and that Arnis and Eskrima are supposedly sub-systems......what???

I do not mind the term Kali, but the stories that come with it cannot be backed up by facts and many practitioners of Kali boast superiority for this reason and that reason but cannot provide a bibliography of their historic references, usually articles written by practitioners have quotes from books that are not even 10 years old yet. Hardly historical.

But I am happy to use the terms Eskrima, Kali or Arnis as they are all understood as the same martial art either way. It is just the individual styles that can vary. I look at the people rather than the term they use anyway.

I reckon if someone just said Kali was a modern day name it would be more widely accepted but however we are all saying FMA now which saves arguments.

Maybe another option is to say Eskrima Kali Arnis in one breath and someone is bound to understand one of them .

The meaning of Kali will only ever be established once we know where Kali originates as there are so many dialects and languages that it could mean anything at the moment from Pineapple, to scrapping and there are many rude translations of the word Kali in some dialects too.

There is one well known group in the west that use the term Kali, but their explanation of why they use the term does not make any sense and actually adds to confusion so wouldn't it be better to start a family tree of groups in the PI using the term to see how far back we can get prior to the poulisation of the term in the west.

In other words which groups in the Philippines use the term Kali and how long have they used it for and is this the only term they have used to describe their FMA group?????

Love Lucy :love:

 

In filipino martial arts or practitioner Kali means native arts by using all the native weapons in the philippines,Eskrima terms by using bladed weapons and Arnis is using sticks.And Lapu-Lapu never knew what system his doing nor where it came from his purpose is to defend his tribe.

 

Hi kalislash. Do you have any idea which dialect these terms (with the respective definition you gave) came from?

Ingatz!

:Angel:

 

How about Guam's language

I am thinking it could be a language that might hold a clue.

http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=CJD

I am going to go there for somemore information and check it out.
Might bear some fruit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamorros

Gary

 

The origin of kali can be traced easier than one would normally think. Just ask someone who calls it kali who his teacher is/was and if he's teacher called it kali then ask who was his teacher and the teacher's teacher... and so forth. That shouldn't be so hard since no escrimador with whom those kali claims will live and die in the Phi without leaving any trace.

 

So kali is sanskrit, not filipino.

Ubod is the soft part inside a tree trunk or plant. The root word of katutubo is tubo which means grow so katutubo means indigenous or native.

 

All Filipinos once spoke one language... english.

 

Granting without agreeing that escrima and/or arnis thought patern was spanish in origin, then why not use acknowledged and well known filipino words referring to indigenous fighting methods such as Pananandata?

 

Then of course there is even more information and archiological evidence showing that the Vikings found America long before that. And also there is factual evidence to show that the Celts helped build the 1st Great Wall of China (it was built over 7 times). But no evidence to show that the Chinese had any great influence on the Filipino martial arts or language.

There is evidence showingus that China had some trade interaction with the Philippines as far back as the Ming Dynasty, but no evidence shows any interaction before this period. As for the language, if it were Tagalog then surely it would either sound very much like Cantonese or Mandorin or Cantonese and Mandorin would sound very much like Tagalog, which it does not, there are no similarities in the spoken languages of the Philippines and China.

Filipino's are the same group of people as the Indo/Malay people who are more commonly linked to Polynesian peoples as opposed to Chinese peoples, in otherwords the Hawians, Fijians and Samoans have more in comon with the Filipino than the Chinese. So trying to show a Chinese connection does not hold up to scuteny.

Good point. But so far we have only found groups that use the term Kali, once used other terms including Arnis / Eskrima / Pangamot etc etc. to describe the systems they taught.

With all due respect, this is only one point of veiw and there are many other varing points of veiw on the terminologie used which seem to contradict each other, hence people are looking for solid evidence to show wether the term Kali is what it has been claimed to be, so far no evidence has been brought forward, As I have said many times "Just because someone say's it is true, does not make it so". We need concrete evidence to show us what is and what is not fact otherwise we are all just making assumptions.

I have trained with Eskrima systems that use sticks and Arnis systems that use bladed weapons and both Arnis and Eskrima systems that use a multitude of native weapons, so does this mean that they are Kali systems? which is our point that Kali, Eskrima and Arnis is just three names that mean the same thing and no one term holds presidence over the other, and no one term is more superior to the other.

So we can safely say that the term Kali was not used by Lapu-Lapu and therefore did not exist when the Spanish first encountered the Philippines in 1521 which in turn means that it is not an older term than Eskrima or Arnis and connot be as claimed the 'Mother Art' of all things FMA.

We also have to bear in mind that Lapu-Lapu was not infact a native Filipino, he was in fact a pirate from Borneo, so really if we are honest he was not using FMA to fight off the Spanish invadors he would have been using the fighting skills of Borneo Indonesian or Malaysian based arts.

So in order to help many of us in our research as to where the term Kali came from we need to establish a number of things.

1. Who first used the term?
2. Which Dialect and language does the term come from?
3. How many of the languages used this term to describe their FMA?
4. When was this term first used?

Maybe kalislash you can also help us by giving us an idea of where he heard the term by answering some simple questions with regards to the training you received from your father. Maybe this way we can establish within one group how far back we can trace the term Kali, which will help us all find out more about hw old the term Kali is.

So here goes, if you dont mind could you help us with the following information.

1. What is your fathers name?
2. What system does he teach?
3. When did he first learn this system?
4. Who taught your father?
5. What was it called by your fathers instructors?
6. Who taught them?
7. Which language / Dialect of Filipino did they speak?
8. Which region / Island are they from?


Best regards

Pat

 

Kali is not filipino they used this term so it wont be rough to any body to hear in filipino fighting arts they called patayan,tinigbasay tagaan,saksakan and this is not for commercial arts.And sanskrit are been there for how many years,and right ubod is the soft part of coconut it means ubod is still soft and the tree is still growing.And katutubo is native or indigenous and i am in FMA fo 36 years and teaching somewhere in Europe so i khow how to used the weapons and terms and if you all dout for that KALIMTAN NYO NA LANG

 

Why are you getting so defensive? Nobody has questioned your background, people are only asking for your knowledge and whether you can offer evidence that can shed light on this subject of where the term Kali came from.

It would help if you answer the questions others have posed to you too.

At the moment you are being very vague in your responses which isn't helpful, which can only leave people to question your responses rather than discuss them.

You have come to a public forum obviously because you believe you have an answer to this question, but you are not answering it at all.

So if Kali is not Filipino, from which language is it. If you make statements then they should be backed up with facts or why you believe them to be true, or where you have heard it from, in order to establish whether the information you offer is worth looking into further.

There are several people that are actually researching this subject in the Philippines, who have not managed to find any trace of Kali being used prior to this generation and they actually live there and have travelled the Islands in search of evidence. Why would this be? Maybe as a Filipino yourself you could offer some help to point them in the right direction.

To me your responses do not make any sense and seem to be taking us off subject at times.

Look all people are asking is how far back can you trace the term Kali and what evidence do you have that you can share with us to back this up, like locations, dates, records, people, lineage.

I am sure you understand why people need these kind of details in order to say to people this is or is not correct because of this such evidence, which can show you why.

You seem to think people are just dismissing the term for commercial reasons also, they are not, I in fact think some people are adopting the term Kali for commercial reasons. FMA practitioners are trying to find out that the term Kali does exist before the 20th century, if they were just dismissing it it would not even be brought up as a subject. If it doesn't have any historical evidence then eventually it will be decided that it is in fact a modern day term and people will still use the term, but know it's origin, because we all agree now that it is just one of many FMA termonologies for the art, that will not change.

The only thing that may change is that some people will no longer be able to claim that Kali is somehow superior to Arnis and Eskrima. Surely that is not a bad thing for the FMA as a whole and will stop the pointless arguments that have been happening in the past which is really just over a word.

Please help everybody out and just answer the questions posed to you.

This is research, not an argument.

Love Lucy :love: