The meaning of kali

Dyak_stone,
It is sort of like a religion to some and to others it is just for discussion.

If you are into the anting-anting and tatooing it on your chest or body, is where I am coming from.

I am not saying that is where Ben Largusa is at. But the Ilustrisimo's were big time. Dan Inosanto in his book about the arts did an interview with "Regino" and it is spelt "Ellustrismo" one of the clan of the Ilustrisimo family, most did have the tatooing somewhere on their body. So how do you deal with that in a social conversation over supper.

If you understand my thoughts on that Since I am an agnostic I pretty much have the feeling of "faith is your own gig".

The Kali situation is pretty much picked over. I would think that if you were to talk to an Indian and tell him to deny his belief in the Goddess Kali, and you were on his turf, it would be a short conversation

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm

Gary

 

If I say sibat (spear) i mean scape,This mean we are doing tagaang San Miguel to each other .Now I take out this Kali,Eskrima and Arnis and replace with Tagayan San Miguel.

 

"I am not saying that is where Ben Largusa is at. But the Ilustrisimo's were big time. Dan Inosanto in his book about the arts did an interview with "Regino" and it is spelt "Ellustrismo" one of the clan of the Ilustrisimo family, most did have the tatooing somewhere on their body. So how do you deal with that in a social conversation over supper."

Yes GM Regino was Tatang's uncle, and the younger brother to Tatang's father GM Isidro and uncle GM Melicio. I hope you are not trying to some how link the practice of oraccion and anting-anting to 'kali' ?? The Ilustrisimos were Catholics from Bantayan (Watchtower Island), Tatang's uncle Agapito was a famed mystic, and Tatang himself had oraccion and would pray and meditate at 3 a.m and 3 p.m daily.

 

Based solely on your statement, sir Villabrile chose the term Kali but you have not mentioned for what reason. And it sounds like sir Largusa's students were the ones who say its associated to the goddess, not sir Largusa himself.

The circle isn't complete really and doesn't fit anything as there are still evidences unearthed and statements unproven.

I have asked my Doce Pares instructor what he thought about these terms. He simply says that Arnis and Eskrima are the hispanic terms of the art, arnis used in the north/Luzon and eskrima in Visayas. I've noticed he refers to the art as Eskrima a lot (he's Cebuano). He barely uses the terms arnis and kali. As to his knowledge of Kali, he believes it comes from the Hindus (Srivajayan era) but has no proof where/how the term was coined and for what reason and context. I'll go ask my GM when I see him again.

Hey. That's what I'm here for! (That's what this forum is for... to help each other understand and learn.) I haven't encountered anyone who is as fuzzy with spelling, pronunciation and word usage as me. I can give you a whole lecture on alphabets, pronunciations, punctuations, spellings and grammars if you want. (No I'm not a professor... I'm just a nerd). These things have always been important to me. Allow me to clarify things for you which I am knowledgable about... only if you listen though.

If you think this thread is pretty 'worn out', then maybe you should stop reading? As for some of us, there is always a new piece of information being posted here. If you are tired of reading, nobody's forcing you to keep on checking this thread. hehe

Wahahaha... *falls off chair*...

No further comments.

Lots of Love
dhay

 

dhay,

I have chosen to continue this discussion by using the Kali person's who are the ones that are standing by their belief of the Goddess Kali.

Villabrille handed down to GM Ben Largusa. The Kali mentality was long ago and yes it is hard to find something that is concrete outside of the Goddess, and the name of the sword.

But as I've mentioned before when dealing with a religion or beliefs you are not going to find anything concrete when it comes to the "faith factor".

I would never go and start demeaning them because of there beliefs as far as a religion, some are of the Muslim faith and some are of the Christian faith while others are of a faith lending itself to the Goddess and at the same time being Catholic or some other denomination. Yet I am an Agnostic, so all have the same advantage or disadvantage when it comes to faith and evidence, if presented in a court of law.

Some have taken the name of "Amok" which in itself is sort of suspect, why would you want that to be a name for your Martial Art? But for whatever reason they have chosen it.

To attack the word is one thing to attack the GMs and others who have chosen it for their art is another. I believe it has been around long enough, especially if you are standing by the term connected to the Goddess.

If the Governor of the Islands felt it was ok back when Floro Villabrille was being treated like a hero and connect it to the Island's I think it has some merit.

Was it in the islands prior to the Spanish yes, for the Goddess has been around a very long time. Same with the mentality of the Persian, the Hindu Goddess was there before them also.

In an interview of Ben Largusa in "The Masters Speak" by Jose M. Fraguas, the thoughts of what the GM had at that time are very revealing.

In another thread, I am in about Mind, Spirit, and Body (you could add soul) It is the philosophy behind the systems and this is where the art of Kali is also.

So, I think that just about covers my response towards your last message.
And a few post's prior regarding belief and faith. And yes, I believe your thoughts about helping and learning is very nice and it should be that way, but I have seen some pretty mean applications of forum demeaner that are not quite that way.

I'll add this (below) again and maybe some will read it. It is important if that is your belief. But it also shows how long the "Martial Art" of Kali has been around, and the devotion is huge in that area. Of course it would have been stamped out by the Spanish who were Catholic. (might be why it is so hard to find even to this day). Religions have a way of wiping out all evidence of prior beliefs.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm

Gary

 

But if devotion to the Goddess Kali was practiced widely in pre-hispanic Philippines, surely there are shards of evidence pointing to this?

This is what I talked about a few posts back, comparing the influence of Hinduism vs. animism in the pre-hispanic Philippines.

Even if almost no one in the low land, urbanized areas practices animism anymore, its influence is still clearly seen and felt today throughout the Philippines, everywhere from the haring-bakal (literally, "steel king") and similar cults, to the occasional albulario and mananambal/mangkukulam that could still be found today, to the prevalent practice of folk-Catholicism (using rosaries and other religious images as anting-anting, and praying to the multitude of saints almost as if they are spirits who reside within those religious images). In fact, one of the accepted Filipino words for God (aside from Diyos), is Poong Maykapal, which is also the name for an animistic god.

How about Hindu influence in Philippine society? The words karma and guro? The few curry dishes that my grandma knows how to cook? As a pinoy living here in Quezon City, I surely should have come across more shards of Hindu influence, if it was so prevalent back then, no? Surely there should be at least a few Hindu influenced artifacts in our museums here?

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm - Other than an article of faith, what does this website have as proof of a Philippines-Hindu, or much less an FMA-Hindu connection?

And one more thing, the Kalinga tribe who live up north in the Ifugao region? The ones who never were conquered by the Spanish and were able to keep their pre-hispanic culture and religion intact? Those known as fierce head hunters? They are animists, not Hindu, and they do not have a name nor a formalized system for teaching how to fight with their weapons.

The Ibanag, the people whose language the term kalinga (meaning fighter/ head hunter/enemy) came from, were also animists before the Spanish arrived.

The following quote comes from Yena Tam Ngamin (A Mother To Us All), a book about Catholicism in Cagayan Valley (home of the Ibanag people):

 

Well not only does BGile agree with other people who have just said what I have been saying all along but as usual he put up links that have no relevance to Kali the FMA.

And I am still waiting for this BGile

And he wonders why I call him a troll

Keep on Digging, the hole is getting bigger by the day mate.

Pat

 

I have put up where I thought you were being rude. You answered it already.

I put up the link to show its age in the area and if you read the Interview by GM Ben Largusa it would be relevent. Unfortunatly I have not been able to find a link for the interview so the book is where it is at.

I am digging and will continue, thanks for your concern.

Gary

 

Dyak_Stone,

Your thought holds merit but others have mentioned what I have, and it is written in articles in many books.

Some can publish a interview and it is gospel, some will mention books and articles and they are not worth reading? At least I get that feeling.

It is like many historians they look to complement what they feel not what is out there, is an over abundance of one side of the strory versus another. Mainly because of the way the Catholics have destroyed in many countries where they have been and tried to remove the existing religion. The Japanese killed them and removed them from their land and would not allow them back into their culture for close to 200 years HMMM.

I feel with certainty that if the information was found it would be rejected by some even if it was a smoking gun. I can just see it being handed to a priest and the priest relaying the information LOL...

I mentioned Floro Villabrille being honored by the Gov. in the 30's and what does Pat do, attempts to discredit the Governor because he feel's he is a "Colonial Despot", simply "Hilarious" in my opinion. I think that is one for the books.
One I'll remember for a very long time, and repeat in conversations I have with others who study FMA.
<(*-)

Gary

 

"I mentioned Floro Villabrille being honored by the Gov. in the 30's and what does Pat do, attempts to discredit the Governor because he feel's he is a "Colonial Despot", simply "Hilarious" in my opinion. I think that is one for the books.
One I'll remember for a very long time, and repeat in conversations I have with others who study FMA."

I think Pat stated previously that his main concern was where the certificate is, as there doesn't seem to be any record of it in Cebu.

 

Pat mentions,
And to answer your other question regarding bandwidth, quite frankley how much bandwidth I use anywhere on the web is actualy non of your concern and is yet another way for you to detract from the subject as opposed to answering the question at hand.

My response,

Yes, I'll agree with you, that question was off key, so for that I'll apologize.

Gary

 

I’ve been following this discussion from the start & even with the influence of Hindu culture in the Philippines I still can’t understand how the Kali of FMA can be associated with the Kali of the Hindu religion other than in English they are spelled the same.
If Hindu culture influenced the older FMA's the original FMA would have been referred to as Kalari, Kalarippayat or Kalarippayattu not Kali.
The Goddess Kali was manly associated with the Hindu Thuggee cults or sects whos assassinations for gain was a religious duty; also the goddess Kali has always been more associated with death & destruction than martial arts even in Indian Hindu culture.
Although Kali is mention in connection with Kalari she is given no more preference than the other Hindu gods on a Kalarippayat schools altar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_martial_arts

 

No you have not, all you did was make a link to a page, so come on "QUOTE ME".

 

What I actually asked and you failed to answer (which is not unusual): What authority in FMA has the Governer to hand out a rank of Grand Master? SO yes it is hilarious in that a non FMAer of no rank can award such a high certificate of Rank with no authority on the subject. How does that work then?

So come one, answer the question: By what authority did this Governor have to award (if he ever did) such a certificate?

And there is this too of course

So if your going to use my name in coversations, MAKE SURE YOU QUOTE ME WORD FOR WORD AND IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT TROLL

Pat

 

Another voice of Kali. Of course, it's just a voice and doesn't compare to certain cultures' fascination with, or possibly addiction to, "hard, cold, facts, evidence" ad nauseum. As if even the modern clay-footed gods of science and reason didn't speak their "facts" and so-called "history" with the tongue of *interpretation.* <sigh>

http://www.comjuka.com/KaliHx.htm

 

Well Pat,

I am not sure of what authority he had regarding the FMA society, many people are recognized for doing a good job for their country and given an award, I guess that is a question I'll just have to allow others to answer if they have the answer, I was not there and am not sure of the correct answer. But I beleive you drove the Tuhan from the board that mentioned it originally.

Both of your questions are in the same topic that Tuhan Joseph mentioned, Kali and their belief of where their art stems from. If you don't feel it was rude, I guess rude is going to be in the eye of the beholder. All we will do is disagree over it.

I have looked at the rules and position of the term troll and as I have said there are many here that can be mentioned to be a troll, you have taken that position and want to continue with the remark.

So carry on and lets continue the discussion and while we are at it, you can at every chance you get, show your superior debating skills, and name calling.

There are many out there that read these threads and don't post, so I am sure you are impressing them and maybe one of them might comment or not.

Regards,
Gary

 

Doing a good job for their country was not in question. The questions was, by what authority does a Colonial Governor with no FMA knowledge have to hand out a rank claiming that an individual (regardless of who it is) is 'The Grand Master' of that country. And, where is the said certificate? It was claimed that this certificate was placed in the Museum in Cebu, but they seem to have no record of it. So this obviously raises some doubts as to certain claims being made, much the same as the claim that Kali the FMA is from the Hindu Goddess Kali.

I beleive her prefers to be called 'Tuhan' by the way, not 'Tuhon'. But I am sure he decided to leave (if he has) by his own accord, but as I said. Quote me as to where I have insulted him. If asking an honest question is an insult then we would never find anything out because we would all have to just keep our mouths shut, and you would be out of a job in that case.

As I said, quote me, then I will quite happily go through this whole thread and show you were you have been rude more times than one to several people on here, but guess what, there still on this forum.

You threw the first stone, I just chucked it back at you. If you dont like it, then maybe you should take a stand on your beleifs instead of jumping on any bandwagon that may or may not claim certain unfounded theories just for the hell of it. As well as posting links that have no relevance to the subject in hand, just because they have a certain word in it or because you firmly beleive that the Chinese discovered America. If you dont know, simply say you dont know as opposed to giving us all pointless referances.

I call you a troll because that is how you act, and if it is name calling we are on about, as I said. YOU THREW THE FIRST STONE. And yes I will quite happily quote you on it.

And a debate is only as good as the information you have in front of you.

And that is their choice, Am I bothered? No. Why? because I stand by what I say and dont bounce from pillar to post like some I could mention, and if proven wrong, I will be the first one to put my hand up and say, Hey! I was wrong.

The main problem here BGile, is you are trying to give the impression that for some reason I have a problem with the term Kali, now if you read the whole thread PROPERLY you will see I have no problem with the use of the term Kali for the FMA, as a matter of fact I have trained in and still do train from time to time in Kali Styles and I am a senior member in several organisations that promote the use of the term KALI.

What I disagree with is not information, but misinformation. And you well know that. Just look at your last link about the Goddess Kali, now if we are to take this link seriously than we would have to take some of the comments on this site serioulsy, and that would mean that Kali is in fact from Scotland and that it is not in fact 'Kali' but rather 'Callieach' (same name and very similar religion but different spelling, maybe this is were they got the 'C' in Eskrima ) Which is great because I can now go back to the Philippines and tell everyone that they must now wear kilts and kill English and that in fact I am the leader (being a Scot that does 'Callieach') of the FMA which is in fact SMA . And I quote:

But as usual you never read anything properly do you.

But let's stay on your Kali the Mother Art from the Hindu Goddess theory for just a little bit and I will show you why we must all now consider FMA to be Scottish in origin Have a look at this.

More infor here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/3958/goddess1.htm

Now on that note I would like to ask the Moderators to please rename this section of MAP to Scottish Martial Arts as opposed to Filipino Martial Arts

But You TROLL just for some obscure reason have taken it upon yourself to try to misinform readers on here that I hate the term Kali and will disagree with me at every oppertunity regardless, but at the same time agree with someone else who gave the same answer as me. That my freind is a TROLL and until such time as you can actualy prove otherwise that is what I will refer to you as.

Pat

 

And if this is true, then why do we not see countries such as India, Malaysia, Indonesia, the majority of Arabian countries, China and so on and so on not being predominantly Christian???????

For someone who is supposedly Agnostic and whould not demean a religious beleif

you seem to have a gripe with Catholosism. Again another place were you actually contradict yourself.

Pat

 

In Agusan Province they found a golden Tara period of Sri-Vijaya dated 900 to950 AD. Here is a link to a copperplate Inscription in the Philippines dated from 900 A.D. http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm

 

Catholic Church.
I have not demeaned them they did it themselves and it is pretty much history, and is pretty much a given. Regarding the periods of some pretty nasty stuff done by the church.

Your statements are again taken out of context as you like to say so often, and if you want an answer regarding religion history we will have to go to that area for the discussion, and if you'd like to play in that area of reference be ready for many like my self that disagree with your style of debate and name calling.

If I threw the first stone it is/was simply my referencing something that you don't like, similar to my mentioning the Catholic Church and the attrocities done in the name of God. That particular thing has gone on for a very long time, and still is around the world as we write. (Regarding various religious beliefs and the extent they will go to enforce it).

I actually like the one from Scotland. I'll have to check that out more.

Watching a movie last night "the man in the iron mask" was very interesting and the fighting tech's they used, the saber and dagger HMMM.

Gary