The meaning of kali

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by buddafinger, Oct 22, 2006.

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  1. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    The term Kali is being used more and more by some respected groups in the Philippines as a recognised and accepted term for the FMA but it is by most not beleived to be an ancient term or the term for the mother art as some have said in the past.

    Much the same as the story of the Blind Princess is beleived by some to be just a myth and the stuff of good legindary story telling. But that is another debate.

    Why are some Pinoy groups now adopting (for want a better word) the term Kali as opposed to using the other recognised terms such as Arnis and Eskrima which many will admit was used by them in the past? There are a number of reasons and one of the main ones can be due to the Filipino public perception of Arnis (a term most pinoy's recognise). Many of the middle and upper classes in the PI see Arnis as being the rough art of the street and many of it's practitioners are looked down upon by them as something similar to a gun slinger from the US, they are seen as swagering macho street brawlers.

    Obviously this perception is in most instances untrue but because of the nature and effectiveness of the art and it's wide use of weapons with it's practioners known for their duelling matches we can see why they would get this impression. The term Kali on the other hand, mainly because of the American media coverage of this term, has been given a more mystical and appealing perception of the art to the public and at the moment seems to be a more PC freindly term for the art that most of us now just call FMA.

    There is no evidence as of yet to show that it is an anceint name for the art (just because someone say's so is not evidence that it is in fact true), there is no evidance to show that it is the mother art of Arnis / Eskrima either, but there is some evidance that shows that it is a more recent term made up and adopted by the FilAm practitioners and some Filipino migrants and it may be more likely that the terms Arnis / Eskrima are actually older terms than Kali.

    Check this site out for more details. http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom4.html

    There are other older terms describing the art from various islands that have come up such as Pangamot, Pangolisi, Kaliradman etc etc and these do hold some ground as being older names, but no one of these terms has been labled as the original name or the mother art, but you have to bear in mind that with 111 official languages each of which will have several dialects there may well be 111 other names for the art.

    Also the other misconception of Arnis being from the North (Luzon) Eskrima being from the Central (Visaya's) and Kali being from the Muslim South (Mindanao) is only based on hearsay, You will infact find Arnis and Eskrima clubs / styles in all of these areas and they are all Christian based arts but there is yet to be found a Muslim Kali Master, as a matter of fact the Martial Art taught by the Muslim's in the South is in fact Silat and only bears a little resemblence to the empty hands of the art of Kali / Eskrima / Arnis, all of which are in fact one and the same art.

    The terms Arnis / Eskrima can be traced back to the early days of Spanish occupation and some older terms such as those above have been shown to be used. And there is no doubt there was an indiginous fighting art in the Philippines before the arrival of Magellan and his crew and it is known that the Spanish did in fact influence the art but not with Rapier and Dagger as has been mentioned by some. The Rapier is in fact a gentlemans side arm used only for self defence and dueling, it is more likely that the Spanish influenced then with a Sabre and Dagger or Cutlass and Dagger, weapons ideal for battle, which cannot be said for the Rapier.

    But, those who have made claim to the term Kali as being the original name and mother art have yet to give any solid evidance to back this fact up and what little evidance they do show us, does not under investigation hold up.

    Is Kali like Arnis / Eskrima an accepted term to describe the FMA? Yes it is now, but is the historical importance it has been given actually true? No or at least it has not been proven to be so.

    Who knows, Kali may well have been a term used by one group hundreds of years ago in the Philippines to describe the art, but that is yet to be proven.

    You also have to ask yourself this question: If the art of Kali is the Mother Art of all things FMA and it is from the Muslim's in the South / Mindanao (something that some groups state on a reuglar basis), then why did they use two Cebuano worlds Kamot and Lihok to coin the term KALI, why did they not use their own language from Mindanao which is not Cebuano?

    At the end of the day it is up to those who have made this claim that Kali is the mother art and the original term to prove this fact. No proof as of yet has been brought forward. But most do accept it is a term we recognise to describe FMA, but only one of many.

    I am sure all of us in FMA awaite with eager anticipation to be shown the actual evidance backing up their claims to the origins of the term Kali, and for those of us who have our doubts we will gladly stand corrected if they can.

    But until proven otherwise the history and description of the use of the term Kali will have to remain a matter of myth and legend.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2006
  2. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Slightly Redundent But...

    Hi all,
    Thought I'd post it anyway, I don't think it makes it any easier to understand but it is another thought regarding the word.




    Frequently asked questions:

    Q: How is Kalis Ilustrisimo different from other FMA's?
    A: Kalis Ilustrisimo is blade-based, very technical, employing principles of physics and kinesthetics along with an excellent insight into human psychology in conflict situations. Other FMA's are stick-based and, in fact, call themselves "stick-fighting" systems. They are typically less technical and rely on furious flurries designed to fend off attacks. Some FMA's have taken a ride on the "Kali" bandwagon, now taken to mean "blade-based" and translate stick into blade.

    Q: How is Kalis Ilustrisimo similar to other FMA's?
    A: The older FMA's are very similar to Kalis Ilustrisimo differing only slightly in some applications. Master Leo Giron's system is an example. These older FMA's were blade-based and used sticks to reduce injury in practice. The newer FMA's adopted the stick as the main weaponand evolved a different approach to fencing usage.
    The older, blade-based FMA's combined the original Malay sword-work, characterized by flexibility, subterfuge and close-in work with Spanish Martial Fencing. This type of fighting refined sword-work to mathematically precise movements formalized for organized warfare. The resultant mix, as in Kalis Ilustrisimo, combines the best of the two systems, East and West.

    There are many other FMA's similar to kalis Ilustrisimo but they have remained family heirlooms. Tatang's family's fighting fame put Kalis Ilustrisimo unto center-stage along with some mentioned above.


    Q: How did Tatang develop his art?
    A: Tatang's art was his family system. While far away from his family, he learned more of the same system from a Pedro Cortez. Even the Tausog sword-work he learned as an adopted Muslim was part of the same system. There are many techniques employed in Kalis Ilustrisimo which can be recognized in other old FMA's. This would this would mean that at a certain point in the past, Kalis Ilustrisimo or something very similar to it was generic FMA. Evolution into the common FMA forms seen today was driven by cultural and commercial forces.
    Tatang did not therefore develop his art out of thin air. He simply preserved an old martial fencing system. Of course he would have a bearded sword master who would teach him in dreams.

    Q: Where did the word "Kali" come from?

    A: Leo Gaje seems to have corroborated with Dan Inosanto in spreading the use of the word. The word "kali" was introduced to Tatang by Mike Belzer. Tatang originally described his system as "escrima". In fact, the first formally registered name of the system was Olisistrimo (from "olisi" meaning "stick" and "Ilustrismo"). After Belzer's suggestion, it became and remained Kali Ilustrisimo until its change to Kalis Ilustrisimo. "Kalis" means means "sword".
    "Kali" to mean "sword" or "swordwork" is not found in any of the 87 or so Philippine dialects. "Kali" in the Ilocos region, for example, can mean "eagle" or a "hole in the ground". The commonly accepted idea that "Kaliradman" and "Kalirongan" are word cognates of "Kali" ignore the fact that "Ka" as found in the above words are prefixes used to denote "a state of being". The root words of the above conjugations are "Liradman" and "Lirongan" respectively and certainly not "Kali" by any extension. The closest word; "Pagkali-kali" is descriptive of the locked talon-jousts of eagles in mid-air, similar to swordsmen locked in combat. "Pagkali-kali", however, is so obscure and localized that it cannot be used as the basis of a description for a fighting system used almost throughout the Philippine islands.

    While Hindu influences lie just beneath the veneer of the Christianity Filipinos are so proud of, the Hindu pantheon is not within the remains of Hindu / Sanskrit root words in the Philippine languages and dialects. "Kali" to mean "sword-work" simply did not exist until it was coined by modern FMA exponents.

    "Kalis", on the other hand, means "sword" and specific movements of the blade. Its etymology can be traced from the Indo-European Turkish "Kilij" (a saber) to the Indo-Malay "Keris" or "Kris". Its usage is extant in at least half of the Philippines.


    Q: What is Arnis, Eskrima and Kali?
    A: " Arnis" comes the Spanish "Arnes" which means "Harness" in English. It denoted the various means by which armor was strapped on. In the plays presented by the Spaniards to show the conflict with the Moors (Moros), actors donned "Arnes" and acted-out the sword fights. In the corruption of meaning and words so common in Filipino, "Arnes" or "Arnis" cam e to mean "swordplay".
    When the Spaniards prohibited Filipinos from wearing swords, the Filipino gentry took to the cane. Thus sword-work evolved into stick-fighting which became known as "Arnis". The French stick-fighting art called "La Canne" evolved similarly, when, in 1890 duelling with swords was prohibited and formal martial fencing instruction declared illegal.

    "Escrima" or "Eskrima", from the Spanish word "Esgrima" meaning "Fencing", was the word used for "swordplay". The older, blade-based FMA's used this term. In time "Arnis" and "Eskrima" became interchangeable terms used to describe stick-fighting. It is ironic that now "Kali" is taken to mean "sword-work" while "Eskrima" or "Escrima" which used to mean "sword-work" is now taken to mean "stick-fighting".


    Hope it helps some,
    Gary
     
  3. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    I have started to develop my own style called 'Lucy Arnis'. :D

    Seeing as I am a 'mother' and I am practicing and teaching an 'Art', I would like everyone to refer to my new style from now on, as the 'mother art' :love: .

    These are my reasons laid out for everyone, no shadey grey area's, it is what it is for the reasons stated above. No mysticism here :eek: .

    Hopefuly there will not be any arguments as to the origins of my term and how it came about. :woo:

    Just like planning permission, you have 30 days to dispute my proposition. If there are no ligitimate arguments I will then become the 'Mother Art' and no-one else can use the term. I think that is fair. :D
    .................................................... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D...............................................

    Love Lucy :love:
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2006
  4. spirez

    spirez Valued Member

    I dont really know what you're babbling on about, lol.

    But my Guro said to me at the Rick Young seminar the other day how Kali was the 'mother of all arts'.

    I laughed it off thinking he was only saying it as it was his favourite, but he was like 'no... really'

    BTW Rick Young was the ****. Admittedly i got a little lost with some of the stuff he was showing us as i'm only a beginner but he also did some BJJ that i loved.
     
  5. Black_Grass

    Black_Grass Valued Member

    JKD people are the worst (or is it the best) at spreading the "Kali" myth. I should know as I am a JKD man as well.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Fudo Myo-o

    Kali-Yuga is a term used in Buddhism of the sect that got into Japan. It was in China and Tibet and India prior to Japan.

    It has to do with fire, swords and wisdom of the unfettered mind while using the sword. To fight the unbeliever's of Buddhist thought.

    Mother of all arts, it might be.
    If traced back far enough which is where the Inosanto group has gone.
    Is to an earlier time then what we are discussing, regarding the current words from the occupation of the Fillipines by the Spanish.

    Kali is a very old term, thousands of years. I would think.

    Regards,
    Gary
     
  7. oosh

    oosh Valued Member

    I haven't as yet come across any evidence to support the 'mother art' theory historically or linguistically. Personally I'm not a great fan of all encompassing theories in history or archaeology. In my experience human interaction over the ages is complicated and multi-faceted, especially when you consider the geographical position that the PI are in and how this has made it important throughout the history of the region.
     
  8. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Yes it is a very important area for those living there. How important was it in the days of old? According to some it was an area of feuding and non compliance and not to be bothered.

    Along came a few ships from nations far away, brought into a new world and changed by oppression. When given the chance they slip back into the clan system. You can see this in the way of the arts themselves. Everyone has the best system, and it is old and family oriented.

    When China wanted to trade with someone they came/went there to trade and to try and get tribute, not to war with the nation for hundreds of years and then lose to them.

    The mentality of the western mind is similar to the fiefdoms of Japan not the same as the Chinese while trading with nations for thousands of years.

    It is interesting how we cling to these views of warring nations and how great they were. Look at Greece and Japan, much different, if you then look at the Filipines.

    Romanticism is where I see most of it going, not based on logic, if left to the past they would slip into it. IMHO
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    We are on about the claims of some, saying that 'Kali' is the Mother Art of the FMA, and some are even using humour:eek:

    And the simple responce has to be as I said before.
    As it has been mentioned before it is up to those who make this claim of 'Mother Art' to actually prove it.

    We wait in anticipation.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2006
  10. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    to scrape in tagalog is... kayod
    kaliskisan is to scrape off fishscales
    galis is scabs
    kaliyuga is a hindu term meaning "the age of ignorance"

    kali as a mother art of fma cannot survive in this age of internet,
    it is now quite easy to do research and find out about truth and falsehood.
     
  11. langawsacebu

    langawsacebu New Member

    Pat,
    I totally agree with what you said and the rich info shared by Gary. The burden of proof lies in those who claim as such. Kali-sud gyud mangita ug kamatu-oran dhay oy.
     
  12. Scotty Dog

    Scotty Dog www.myspace.com/elhig

    can we have a translation please :) ?
     
  13. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    [bisaya]Kali-sud gyud mangita ug kamatu-oran dhay oy.[/bisaya]

    which i think translates to:

    [tagalog]kali- malaking problema ang mahanap ng katotohanan dhay.[/tagalog]

    or

    [tagalog]kali- malaking problema ang mahanap ang totoo, dhay.[/tagalog]


    in english

    [english]Kali- that's a big problem looking for the truth/ proof, dhay.[/english]

    or

    [english]Kali- it's a big problem looking for the real one/ thing, dhay.[/english]
     
  14. Scotty Dog

    Scotty Dog www.myspace.com/elhig

    As always Shooto, Very much appreciated :)
     
  15. dhay

    dhay Valued Member

    Uhm... I think you got yourself confused...

    In Cebuano... kayod is to scrape.
    In Tagalog... kayod is literally to 'work hard' or 'give blood-sweat-tears' or 'give hard work' into it...

    In some sense they both mean the same thing... scraping your ass off for something.... It depends on the context on how ur using it. But the my definitions above are more common.

    Pero when you make 'kayod' to a coconut... its the act of scraping the flesh bits off the shell... (there's a special seat with a scraper at the end for this, mind you... lol)

    If I'm the one who's confused and got it the other way around, let me know. It's only 3pm and I already had a couple of glasses of wine. And I'm at work. lol

    :D
     
  16. ritche-stl

    ritche-stl Valued Member

    >>In Cebuano... kayod is to scrape.
    >>In Tagalog...

    kayod is literally to 'work hard' or 'give blood-sweat-tears' or 'give hard work' into it... - this is only correct/applicable for cebuano/bisaya.

    kayod is to scrape - may now be acceptable for both cebuano and tagalog. although the more commonly used bisaya word for this would "kagod"

    hope this helps :)
     
  17. ritche-stl

    ritche-stl Valued Member

    Let me correct myself :)
    Kayod - to mean 'work hard' or 'give blood-sweat-tears' or 'give hard work' into it is also valid for Tagalog.
     
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    The more I am reading and researching the more I am inclined to think that I can find the word to be a variable of something in China. The word Li and Ka both can be taken one piece at a time and a good argument can be made that there is the location of the word.

    Especially when you research the time periord prior to the arrival of the Western world and the seafaring peoples, of China.

    I think this is where Dan Inosanto is coming from, he is a very educated individual, before you go up against his way of thinking, you had better do your homework that is for sure...

    Gary :)
     
  19. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    Yep, you got it confused...
    kayod literally means to scrape as in "scraping the meat of a coconut.. Figuratively it means "working your ass off just to put food on the table".

    BTW, from what Filipino language/dialect does kali means to scrape comes from?
     
  20. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Kali means bud in sanscrit word it is also hindus goddess of destruction ,in Filipino language bud is ubod or katutubo the hidden meaning is native arts.
     
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