"The last Samurai" (2003) - an observation.

During the film, thier is the now infamous "Ninja" attack scene (I will say no more, as I dislike spoliers).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0325710/

I have noticed that nowhere in the film is the word "Ninja" actually used whatsoever.

I was wondering if this was because the makers of the film have stressed so much thier accuracy in portraying the very climax of fuedel era Japan.

It made me smile, the only mention in the script is from Mr Cruise to Mr Watanabe when he asks "those men who where sent here to kill you?" even in the titles the counltess extra's are listed and none seemingly are referred to as "ninja #2" or even "stabbed-in-the neck-screaming Ninja #1"

LOL.

I guess to refer to any "Ninja" would have been to leave themselves open to the countless critics who debate the origin and nature of the Ninja and of course to any fool who ever read a book too...

<nerdy voice> "dear Mr Cruise....can you please tell me why the Ninja were not wearing hakama...I think you'll find that the theatrical costumes used in your movie would have been more at home in a 1980's fancy dress competition than in 19th century Japan....etc....etc"

LOL.

Did anyone else notice this about the movie?

Cheers, HJ.

 

yes, as far as i was aware ninjas never used crossbows.

 

I just think it's a movie and they probably didn't care to put that much thought into it.

 

I've read several articles, where Tom et al stated they wanted to be as accurate as possible with the facts. Hence no Ninja references - they'd be slated no matter what they did IMHO.

As for the crossbow comment, who knows, if Hatsumi shows cannons (especially the hand held type - i.e. guns) and even flintlock rifles in his training books and stresses making the most out of the "available environment" then I guess anything goes....who knows.

 

i believe that the shinobi or fedual japan used what ever weapon that was effective. By the 19th century, I am sure they would have access to crossbows.

On a more realistic note. How do you know they were ninjas, they just could of been mercenaries dressed in black. A Black costume and mask doesn't make you a ninja.

 

If they were so worried about accuracy, then why did they feel they had to insert a white American into the fabled last stand of the Samurai?

That said, I still thought the movie was cool, but I wouldn't split hairs about the facts in there.

 

- touché, sir.

Seriously, I never thought of that in any real detail, back to the training manuals for me.

Everyday is a new lesson.

"never make assumptions or under estimate an oponent or situation, this way you will never be suprised" - or something similar no doubt

 

I guess that for a certain % of the audience a link is needed with "contemporary western culture" i.e. Tom cruise's thoughts and actions (well, his voice-overs anyway) help explain this distant culture to them....for the dummies out there in other words.

My thoery anyway

 

Movie was top

It was pretty accurate and gritty enough so I can see the problem - I think the Men sent to kill were pretty good.

There style pretty effective and there was no Hira stances in there which is always a +!

It was a great film and the black warriors were good entertainment.

 

i liked that scene. regarding accuracy, the two things that stuck out to me was:

they sent like 60 guys to knock off one bloke. im not a historian or nothing but im pretty sure that wasnt done.

the second thing was when they went into the houses and a few samurai came at them so they decided to put some shuriken in their necks. again, im not a historian, but im pretty sure they didnt use shuriken in an offensive situation, or even to kill, for that matter.

those points aside, i thought the movie was tops, and the small discrepancies didnt really bother me that much.

and agreeing with sonshu, plenty good entertainment.

cheers
Jim

 

I have to say I always had the impression Ninja operated individually more often than not, but who cares - what a scene! I gues they were ninjas because the swords looked straight and ninjas ALWAYS used straigt swords...right...didn't they...?

Shaken were traditionally used with poison or dung on them to infect the bloodstream. I understand they were to cover escapes as much as kill people outright.

I agree with the analysis of Cruise's role. He was the "bridge" between the Oriental/Occidental cultures - in essence he was the audience personified onscreen.

Have any of you seen "Ghost Dog"? It is a very different film with a very similar theme (the anachronistic nature of honour and a code of ethics in todays society). Well worth a viewing!

 

Sonshu> It was pretty accurate??? Do you mean historically?
Hannibal> Ghostdog is a good film Even if it is a little odd to think of Forest Whitaker (or however you spell it) as an assasin...

 

Sonshu has very little understing of Ninjutsu. I've read his various posts and he talks about lack of effectiveness of fudoken or Hicho no kamae or Hira no kamae, etc, etc. He simply refuses to understand that these posture or "stances" are used in the very beginning of training to understand the principles of body movement in taijutsu. (that's another by the way, sonshu refers to taijutsu with an i and not a "u" so i don't believe he knows much about it, he has given examples of his knowledge, but it means nothing because there a plenty of videos and books that you can watch or read in a short period of time and have the same knowledge he demonstrates on taijutsu) Is taijutsu perfect? definitely not. I agree with him that lack of groundfighting in the art and sparring are two glaring weaknesses of the art. However, I do know it depends on which school you study. There are bujinkan schools that teach sparring and many now have become open minded and are adding groundfighiting skills to the art which they take from other groundfighting arts. The simple fact is that Bujinkan Ninjutsu does not have a groundfighting system. That said, it's still highly effective in the streets.

 

This had to do with the Last Samauri?

Or have you just been waiting to attack Sonshu, for no reason. Sonshu opinons are valid. What is your expirence, that allows you to attack respected member of our board?

 

"This had to do with the Last Samauri?

Or have you just been waiting to attack Sonshu, for no reason. Sonshu opinons are valid. What is your expirence, that allows you to attack respected member of our board?"


Plasma,

I haven't been waiting to attack Sonshu. I didn't view my post as an attack, but an observation. His post referred to "no hira stances" in the fight scenes in last Samurai. He has been attacking all along I can't voice my opinions? Even though it's none of your business, my experience in ninjutsu started in 1987 with Bud Malmstrom, trained with Bud for 5 years and moved to Boston. Trained with Mark Davis, Tim Dean and Greg Kowalski for another 5 years. Trained in Israel with Moshe Zouler for 3 months. Been to several tai-kais. been to Manaka seminars, Muramatsu Seminars, Steve Hayes seminars, etc. To sum up, I've trained more or less for about 15 years total.

Agent

 

Agent, hate to break this to you but both taijitsu and taijutsu are both romanisations of another alphabet, and both are valid. Same as nijitsu/ninjutsu, jujitsu/jujutsu and so on. Its just different ways to translate an alien word into the phonemes that we use.

As to your post it really does sound like you've been waiting for an opportunity to attack him. You make no comments relevant to the thread, and simply say that you don't believe him to have any knowledge of the art. You're welcome to hold that opinion, and to disagree with Sonshu, or anyone else. You are not however free to make personal attacks on someone on a thread where they did not even make the comments you are criticising him for.

If you had gone to another thread where he had posted criticisms of ninjitsu/ninjutsu then that would be one thing. To come to a thread about a film where all that he said was that he liked the fact there were no hira stances in the film, and then savage him for knowing 'nothing' about ninjitsu, is quite another thing.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165798/

I really enjoyed Ghost Dog, and all the people that argue over him using a gun have me in stiches too.

In a modern day interpretation of the Bushido code, the need to serve your master to "the best of your means" in 20th Century America would necessiate the use of firmarms, you'd be pretty useless warrior otherwise no matter how good your techniques with a sword were (cue that scene from "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" and all that type of tomfoolery).

Plus it was just that, a 'modern' interpretion, no one complained that he was'nt running around wearing a top knot and hakama/Kimono, etc, etc....LOL

oh er, back to the topic though, this isn't a movie thread...D'oh...

 

"Agent, hate to break this to you but both taijitsu and taijutsu are both romanisations of another alphabet, and both are valid. Same as nijitsu/ninjutsu, jujitsu/jujutsu and so on. Its just different ways to translate an alien word into the phonemes that we use."


"If you had gone to another thread where he had posted criticisms of ninjitsu/ninjutsu then that would be one thing. To come to a thread about a film where all that he said was that he liked the fact there were no hira stances in the film, and then savage him for knowing 'nothing' about ninjitsu, is quite another thing."

Lilbunnyrabbit,

You missed the point. I never said Taijutsu couldn't be spelled with an "i". However, anyone who has even had a years worth of training in one of the Takamatsuden arts would know to refer to it as "taijutsu" Otherwise, I would view it as he's poking fun at the art or he just didn't study with anyone for very long

As to the second comment above, if you think I savaged Sonshu, you must one benevolent human being, my friend. Anyway, you're right I should have atleast made a comment about the movie. I loved it. It was one of my favorite movies of the year.

Agent

 

Although I have no idea how accurate "The Last Samuari" is - I believe that it is based on the Satsuma Rebellion led by a samuari called Saigo Takamori...... i found this print on the net purportedly done in 1877 - http://www.degener.com/1310.htm
....interestingly there appears to be an American military officer with Saigo when he commits seppuku. granted there are factual errors by the artist (YO****OSHI, Tsukioka 1839-1892) anyway - i still find the inclusion of the gaijin interesting.......

 

Nope, not necessarily. I know several schools near me that use the term Taijitsu rather than Taijutsu, you want me to go and tell them they're spelling it wrong?

Yes, I am a benevolent human being, however, within your first few posts on the board you insulted Sonshu, not only that you started accusing him of knowing nothing of the art, without knowing anything about his training and experience, and to top it off you didn't even make a transparent attempt to stay on topic.

All he did was said that he liked the fact that there's not a certain group of stances in the film, how exactly is that making fun of an art? I'd say that I'd be glad if a karate film doesn't have horse stance in it, and I'm hardly attacking the art for that now, am I?