The Kuk Sool List

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Xanth, Mar 7, 2011.

  1. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    Obewan
    I don't own a school, so I've no reason to be frustrated. I speak as I see: and that is I see too many people in Kuk Sool schools who are manifestly not fit enough to do the work required. If the school head had any sense about him, he'd send them down the road to the local fitness gym, tell them to work out for six months and then come back when they are ARE fit
    Besides that, what is the point of passing people in tests when they failed the test? A pass is a pass and a fail should be a fail. And the NEXT fail should be a fail. Not - as I've seen several times "Oh you passed half the test so we'll give you half the stripe: you can have the other half when you fail the next test....." "Special cases" be damned - you are either good enough to pass or not. Fooling someone into falsely believing they genuinely have a martial arts skill and are capable of self defence is akin to giving someone a loaded shotgun with the bores plugged and then asking them to take a shot...
    Think of the legal implications. You pass someone who's useless. He tries to intercede in a mugging (or whatever) and gets killed because his supposed skills, aren't. Thats one heck of a liability issue heading your way when someone asks the question "why couldn't he make it work?"


    As for "show a little compassion for your customers" surely the best way to show compassion is to tell the truth. If they're crap, tell them so. Its better for their self-esteem that they do something they CAN make an achievement in, rather than have false hope in one they cannot. Remember: at the bottom line Martial Arts / Sports boil down to hitting or hurting the other bloke more than he can hurt you. Its not a family saturday get-together. Its a hard brutal training struggle with pain pain and more pain requried to actually achieve anything. If customers do want a family afternoon out activity to keep fit, tell them to go hill-walking or bird-spotting. Or if they want a level of violence they can tolerate, tell them to go fishing
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  2. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    But being truthful to people whose 100% is short of the required standard to succeed is not being mean. Its simply being truthful
    The truth often hurts, if it does theres no way to hide it.
     
  3. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    I don't know jamesdevice, you can usually see the difference in someone who spends time .and effort outside of class training and those that just show up for an hour and don't seem to learn very well. The ones that make an effort outside of the training hall usually reflect that effort in their performance. And fighting is different them technical ability, I seen some really graceful, technically minded martial artists over the years that couldn't fight worth a spit. My kempo instructor uses to say that ma was ten percent physical and ninety percent mental.
     
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Hehe, you crack me up! :D


    Agreed. But allow me to paraphrase Elliot's words in order to better convey why I found them to be sig-worthy:
    I doubt that being sympathetic would require LYING to someone about their abilities. I also don't see why you would need to "send them down the street to the gym" when structuring your class activities properly SHOULD provide enough of a workout to get a *blob* in better physical condition, i.e. provided they attend regularly and give 100%. :dunno:


    As elliotmurphy pointed out in post #83, effort outside of MA class helps with all of this, and if someone is truly dedicated, then that likelihood increases dramatically, along with the results of such extra effort. ;)


    EDIT:

    Hopefully you'll see this edit before you reply to my post. I concur 100% with post #85. I also hope you understand that I wasn't advocating the *senseless* advancement of a student's rank when stating that compassion should be shown to those with setbacks (as compared to the ELITE athletic type of person who shouldn't require sympathy or compassion).
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  5. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn


    But the problem is they get promoted at the same rate!!!!
    Students need
    the physical fitness speed strength and stamina
    the mindset required to understand that to succeed, you WILL have to hurt people
    the desire to push themselves into the required training regime on a liong term basis

    If just one of those is missing, then as an instructor you are wasting your time - and teaching and promoting them is devaluing the very basis of what you are doing
     
  6. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    But you as a teacher should not need to be distracted by having to get someone into shape: it detracts from the real skills you should be teaching those who CAN learn Its a bit like taking time out from a lecture on relativity theory to teach one of your students basic algebra.
    If you think about it, with a bit of common sense referring fatties to the gym could be beneficial: do a deal with a local fitness centre so they pay you for each successful referral, and you pay them for each student they send to you. Lots of these gyms have guys looking to start an MA, and most of them end up with the Japanese styles - or else Kickboxing / MMA clubs
    I can think of examples in the UK where you have a school and a fitness center within 200 yards, yet never do they get together. If worked out properly you could even possibly get a group discount for the whole school to fitness train there
     
  7. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Now you're sidetracking the main thread-drift topic, J-D, so I refuse to comment further unless another thread is started. :bang:
     
  8. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    I agree with some of that at the core jamesdevice, but the plain fact of thee.matter is society is getting more .and more obese through diet and lack of exercise, and while someone may be overweight that doesn't mean they can't fight, I have seen people get really embarrassed when they pick a fight thinking oh that fatty can't fight and find out otherwise, but I do get your point, its just that life isn't always black and white. And yes, we have some people that work for longer than three months before that next color belt, but not everyome promotes when they aren't ready and I'm truly sorry for anyone whose instructor rushes them through instead of making them better
     
  9. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

  10. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I think these 2 quotes have been visited before so I will respond below.
    I think we are in danger of haphazardly mixing seemingly related topics.

    1) "Fatties" and physical fitness: I agree that at some point, folks can become so obese that they cannot perform required MA elements at a satisfactory level. This is definitely a problem but I see the solution as something different than joining a gym or lengthening conditioning times. Why? You simply do not burn enough calories to offset other bad habits. The solution is: DIET control. Folks may train at a moderate or even mild level in class but then "reward" themselves with a candy bar and pop. That candy bar just negated all the hard work. Portion control is the other big problem. When folks work out hard, they think they "deserve" bigger portions because they think they "burned" it off. It is a rat race of the diet. If people are showing up regularly to class, I wouldn't suspect activity/exercise level as the primary problem, I'd suspect diet. So...what to do? That is regionally-dependent and that is another discussion.

    2) Promotions rate: as in promoting folks who can barely perform or should be failing. Folks label this as "standards." The problem is that in KS, rank and skill do not necessarily go hand in hand. This is not a performance-based art like BJJ or Judo where performance level dictates promotion rates. Also in the mix is the fact that KS has a low minimum proficiency to BB and a lengthy learning curve. I've always thought that a KS 5th dan is when you can expect or should expect a high level of proficiency and expertise. The level I am talking about is the public perception of what a "BB should be." In BJJ, you can be certain that if one holds a legitimate 1st degree BB in BJJ, that person is probably very skilled. There are VERY few "duds" at that rank. That may not be true in KS...actually, there may be quite a few KS duds at 1st dan. But wouldn't most people agree that by 5th dan, most that have reached that rank have earned it? Thus, the public perception of what a BB can and cannot do is due to a false expectation of seeing 5th dan skills on a 1st dan person. And of course, this trickles down to the color belts.

    3) Solution to #2: this is a tough one because I think the problem of "standards" exist everywhere. I've said this before...if it is part of the syllabus...and you don't master the syllabus at your level...why should you expect your students be held to a higher standard than yourself? Meaning, if you aren't leading by example, the problem is not with the students, it is with the teachers. As shown, by Master level in KS, acupuncture/acupressure shows up in the curriculum. How many "masters" have a license in these arts? (or another comparable healing art?) Some have argued that they haven't been taught the material or have some other excuse. That is why I quote elliotmurphy above....in that if folks are expected to put in some practice and effort outside of KS classes to make themselves better within the art....the same should be expected of "masters" to a higher degree. These masters should be enrolling in schools and getting their degrees and licenses to practice acupuncture/acupressure or other healing art. If they are not doing this and are using whatever excuse under the sun...they no longer have the moral high ground to demand their own students meet all the requirements in a KS curriculum.

    4) Accusations of McDojo-ism: I don't think everyone has the same definition of the term. I think many people here also seem to be interchanging this term with Bullshido. Although there may be differences of opinions as to what a McDojo is...my view defines 2 key elements: a) exorbitant rates and b) easy access to reach BB level which often translates to children holding BBs. From my point#2 about the KS learning curve above, I see 5th dan as the threshold. So...have the fees over the 20+ years it takes to become a KS 5th dan been exorbitant? Are there children or folks who have reached 5th dan in less than 3 years? Neither answer is yes for me.

    5) Difference between a fighter and a martial artist: Contrary to what many folks want to believe, not all people want to learn MAs so that they can learn to fight. Fighters train for the purpose of a fight...whether it be for tournaments, professional endeavors or for a job. Martial artists, OTOH, have their own agenda and goals...which they are striving daily to achieve. One such goal may be for a mother to spend some quality time with her kids having fun while learning something new...so when a mom and her 2 kids walk into a dojang to sign up for lessons...I see that as her journey as a martial artist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  11. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :rolleyes:

    Post #90 could have (and IMO should have) been posted on the new thread created by jamesdevice in an effort to help keep this one from further derailment. :Alien:
     
  12. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Who died and left you Aegis?
     
  13. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    Frankly, if someone pays less than $164.34 per month for regular training classes, they have no room to complain about exhorbitant rates.

    Why do I say this? In 1977 I was paying $45 per month which was a typical rate back then and, adjusted for inflation http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm, it would be $164.34 today.

    I thought it was a reasonable rate back then, so its adjusted rate now would also be reasonable. However, I hear most people start complaining if tuition cost more than $75 per month today (which would equal $20.54 back when I started and which is 46% of what I paid.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2011
  14. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Take it to the other thread, gentlemen. :yeleyes: . . . (please!)
     
  15. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I hear you with 1 caveat: I'd be willing to pay more for unlimited monthly sessions...but less when there are less than 3x/wk restrictions.

    Also, I think the complaint about exhorbitant rates was more about testing fees than monthly fees. I estimate about $7000 will be spent paying for testing fees, generals uniforms, special seminars by the time it takes a person to become a Master in KS in WKSA (20+ years). For some, it can be pricey but doing the math, it still comes out to less than a dollar/day.
     
  16. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

  17. CriticalDog

    CriticalDog Valued Member

    That is awesome, good to see Kuk Sool returning to Sacramento in a dedicated facility.

    There is a whole raft of former KSW folks in Sacramento who were lost after the dissolution of Sacramento KSW. Nothing but good wishes for Ms. May!
     
  18. Humbleseeker

    Humbleseeker Valued Member

    I just started Kuk Sool a month ago after doing some research he is a KJN in the WSKA and then left I have no idea why I just started. Does it really matter? If you are learning an art and getting in shape. I am ignorant of all of this stuff just been doing some readings on the pages. As far as prices my son and I train unlimited for just 100 a month. 50 per person doesn't sound so bad.
     
  19. JKN-Pellegrini

    JKN-Pellegrini Valued Member

    That's actually darn good. The local Korean Martial Arts school where I live charges around $125 a month for that, per person.

    As far as whether it matters if your instructor is a member of the won or not, well... I suppose that decision is yours to make. I can only list what I think are the benefits of being in the WKSA: 1) Standardized syllabus and recognition of rank in all WKSA schools (so if you move and there happens to be a WKSA school in your new town, you know you will fit right in, with essentially nothing new or different to learn below your rank). 2) the ability to attend all won tournaments and seminars, which are not open to schools outside the won.
    I'm sure everyone that has left the Won has done it for a reason, but it is not my place to relate that. Be that as it may, you'll certainly enjoy Kuk Sool. Once again, welcome!
     
  20. Humbleseeker

    Humbleseeker Valued Member

    It is cheap me and my son started the end of March had the first week free and its kinda like a family deal the more people the cheaper. I have never heard of kuk sool before it is the only school in the area.

    I guess If I move to another area and join another school ill just start at white belt again. lol
     

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