The Kuk Sool List

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Xanth, Mar 7, 2011.

  1. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    I've said this before and I'll say it again
    I've seen too many awarded black belts who have been so unfit they have problems doing the warm-up, let alone doing forms.
    One example: How can you award a black belt to a female who is 5'5" tall and weighs around 16 stones (thats 224lbs) and can't do a situp? Her husband was even fatter - but refusing to pass them would have been bad for business.

    Ironically they promoted together. And then they left together because they knew they weren't any good and they weren't too interested anyway. They only stayed to get the belt because they'd already paid the test fees two years earlier....

    another case where a kid who was absolutely totally uncoordinated and incapable of even falling in a straight line was given accelerated promotion because there was a danger that if he left due to loss of interest, then both his parents would also leave.

    I could go on, but you get the idea.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  2. elephruit

    elephruit Wocka wocka!

    So sad... :(
     
  3. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    yes, but also so damned incompetent
    I'm convinced one part of the problem is that there is no ongoing quality inspection - or even quality standard - at work in the UK
    You have a number of UK based senior masters, but do you ever see them at a school more than 20 miles away from home? Do you heck. They've NO idea of the standards being taught, or even the syllabus being taught. The top five (with one exception) all live within spitting distance of each other anyway, forming a nice little cabal.
    The various regional school heads are left to carry on alone with no feedback, so support, no help. Neither for training, nor business support. Its total mushroom management - except for the occasional confrontational missive from Head Office when someones displeasure is felt.
    And then again some of the school heads themselves are a bit questionable. Besides charging shennanigans and McDojo sales activities, you have overt cheating at competitions by some masters. And of course - the odd convicted criminal in charge here or there

    Tulsa's right in his desire to improve standards. But its important to realise that the underlying issue is an ethical problem of how the business works. You cannot fix the quality issues without underpinning the basic morality and legitimacy of how the schools are run.
    Maybe thats why the WKSA introduced the franchise system: to give them the required power to sort this out. The problem is (1) I see no desire from them to fix this problem (2) the people who could fix it are - in many cases - the problem themselves as they either deny the issue, or have no interest in fixing it.

    Look at the numbers
    In the UK you have two 7th Degree masters, three sixth, thirteen fifth. 18 in total How often do any of those actually go to another school and see whats happening there? There are 65 UK schools. Thats not exactly a lot of work for 22 people to inspect on a quarterly basis. Mind you - that assumes they are up to the job of assessing quality, of which I'm by no means certain they are... You have to wonder when one of the most (the most?) successful UK tournament schools (Livingston) is run by a 3rd Degree.... So much for all that advanced experience the masters can offer
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  4. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I dont know JD...perhaps we should give the WKSA time to sort things out. What is a typical promotion time for black belt? 4-6 years per dan rank? The WKSA has been franchised in the US for a time period less than that. The rules for franchising in the UK are different and they are not subject to the same laws. Thus, if you see a problem in the UK...you cannot translate US franchising to it.

    If you want to talk lack of quality and ethics...what say you about schools that have left the Won and those schoolowners that self-promote? I think it is easier to argue that quality has improved BECAUSE of the franchising.

    On the flip side, you see the WKSA holding steadfast. They hold instructor/schoolowner workshops at HQs every year and they tour schools all around the world every year. For a long period of time, IHS visited every single school every year, bringing with him atleast 1 senior master to teach and hold gradings. This type of peer review is a great thing both at HQs and visiting schools (so you see both "home turf" and "visitor's turf"). It is also a burden because you are held to a higher standard. So it is quite easy for people that leave the Won to: 1) speak poorly about standards when they themselves are no longer held to peer review, 2) speak poorly about some masters who probably know what is happening and are willing to stay and fight their own way instead of running when the going gets tough.

    If you're implying that John Ives and Philip Holmes, the two most senior UK masters are running a poor UK program because of some sort of ethical problem...that is another issue.
     
  5. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    I think to some extent you misunderstand me VM
    Its not a pro- or anti- WKSA stance I'm offering here. I've seen the same problems in member and non-member schools and it seems to me a generic issue. I agree ex-won schools who do not join another supervisory org are definitely putting themselves at risk of falling further. I agree, self-promotion is a joke. As is accelerated promotion when Masters jump ship from one org to another: The "Golden cufflinks belt" to stop them being able return back to WKSA without losing rank.
    However the majority of UK schools are still in the WKSA and thats where the bulk of the UK issue lies - and needs to be corrected.

    You mention Ives and Holmes: I do not accuse them of anything. I simply say the system is such that any supervision / quality control / monitoring / support services that should be in place appears missing. There are - or appear to be - no inspections, or even regular contact with the "junior" school heads. I don't know if that is a fault of the UK organisation, or of WKSA as a whole - but I suspect the latter. I know of at least one case where an instructor was refused help or guidance by his nearest master - basically because he couldn't be bothered.

    As to the WKSA seminars, well I missed them last year but the previous ones I've seen have been a total joke. The last one I saw consisted of Alex teaching the same staff form for six hours. There wasn't much learnt from that event on either side

    My comments about the franchising were that maybe this kind of issue that the franchise was intended to resolve - but from what we read by other posters here, it would appear not
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  6. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    I think this is a very healthy debate, very good points, and the talk of standards and quality are always good for the industry. We have a couple things going on here that must be addressed: Whether we like it or not MA is a business it may be for non-profit, (there's a lot of that going around these days and not just the MA industry) or profit, but you are selling "your" brand of MA to somebody. What are the standards that should be met? Who quantifies those standards, and are those standards a one size fits all as far as the customer or market is concerned?

    If we polled Tulsa, Ollie, James, The Duelist(because I can't spell Hyeongsa), Unk, Myself and so on we would probably get several different theories on what the standards should be. IMO I don't think this is necessary. I'll tell you why later.

    WKSA has taken a hit at almost every turn of any conversation that has taken place here on this form, and to be fare, many other social media. Lets face it it's always ok to bash a "corporate" entity because we've been programed by the media that corporations are faceless, evil, greedy monsters. I understand that point of view especially if you've never been in business ownership or management. I'll let the "cat out of the bag" businesses are suppose to make money, that's the way they are designed. If they don't make money then they go away. So you see if it wasn't for business (entrepreneurship) then we would have nothing to debate, nothing would exist, we would be clubbing our food all day instead of "seducing the K-9" on MAP...sorry about that...

    Because of business profitability certain conditions exist that on one hand seem to undermine the purpose of the product. In MA the purpose of the product is ___________. You fill in the blank because it could be different for everyone. Business is run by strategy or vision of the leadership of the organization. What may appear as disparaging behavior of the leadership may be a compromise to insure the stability of the whole organization. As you Well know, a couple of bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch... girl? ... paraphrasing of course. There is a certain amount of collateral damage when trying to build a business. That is part of the process, and is the most distasteful part and also is usually not done purposefully.

    So we all agree that to a point business is the villain, but we must put a face to it because it is people that created the monster. Tulsa stated in a post that he was told he had to send testing info in to HQ every three months. I agree that you should and the reason why is precisely due to quality control not the opposite as he proclaims. HQ needs to know that the schools are doing what they should as far as the operating procedure is concerned. If Tulsa didn't have any students promoting then all that was needed is the paperwork sent in stating that no one is promoting this quarter. When HQ doesn't hear from its charter schools then it cannot quantify that the school is still in business or is holding up its standards for it's customers. If you think that Kuk Sa Nim, Master Sung Jin, Master Barry, or anyone else in WKSA wants less quality than you do...well you are just not being honest with your self.

    Oh yea I said I'd let you know why I think polling ourselves on standards is not necessary, well because our standards will be set for us by our customers. Sure we can say that we have quality and we can even have a perfect product, or we can even have a crummy product. It is more due to the ability of the instructor to show a positive return on the investment of the individual student. Whether it be money and or time spent. And when you are dealing with a multitude of personalities the product changes with each individual student. In short you have to be flexible and fill the needs of a broad range of the market to gain share in that market. Is it better to help someone lose weight or is it better to help him/her win a trophy? I would be inclined to help both, that is my job as an instructor. I wouldn't hold someone back because he was over weight and I certainly wouldn't compare him to an athlete and judge him by standards that would be impossible for that individual to achieve. We should only compare students to themselves, it is their MA journey not ours, and we should guide them and encourage them to be the best they can be. That is quality to me.

    Sorry so much:eek:
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  7. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    JD, perhaps our views are not all that different considering that you might be speaking from a UK POV while I am in the US. When in comes to franchising, the issue is mostly a US one, for now.

    As to the quality of teaching. All seminars can be a hit or a miss. Anyone who has gone to enough know that. If Alex is willing to put in 6 hours...whether it was helpful to you...or if it was more for beginners...that just tells me that he put in 6 hours more than most others. I know of very few senior masters in other arts who regularly visit hundreds of schools every year. Even GMs are guilty of not stepping into every member school every year.

    Can you elaborate why you think it is a WKSA HQ problem and not a UK organizational problem? A quick look at the schools site shows me that the number of schools in England/Scotland number around 65...of which 23 of them are run by a master. Those are pretty good odds. And AFAIK, none of these masters have less than 20+ years in (meaning none of them are "fresh fish" and thus, have been around long enough to see quality). I'm not sure this is a HQs problem.
     
  8. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    thats a tricky one, and I can only answer that by assuming that the UK heirarchy are doing whats expected of them, in which case the problem lies with HQ
    Of course if they're not then the problem lies over here. If it does then I expect theres an ingrained institutional problem in the way those 23 masters have been trained, or allowed themselves to develop .... in which case you're not going to fix it unless you either have (a) a clearout of dead wood or (b) some pretty far reaching sanctions and impositions from HQ. My view is that instilling proper "quality" values will be easier to do with the juniior instructors than the masters: they've had less time to get stuck in the rut.
    However if the problem is here - it ultimately lies with those who created it through lack of attention and lack of adequate training and oversight. And while I'm not so certain myself, I HAVE heard certain UK instructors voice annoyance at the total lack of interest which emanates from the east of England

    My view? I'd clear out the dead wood and get some professional sports administrators in to replace them. Or impose them over the top. Its a business so let it be run like a business. Advanced knowledge of a MA does not imply a similar knowledge of business systems. Its time for those 23 (I only counted 18, but what the heck) to shape up - or get out
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    All this *chewing the fat* is wonderful IMO, but so way off-topic. :rolleyes:

    Now I've been guilty of sidetracking a few threads in my day, but I really feel as if the current discussion is something folks want to continue, then the thing to do would be for someone to START a new thread. :evil:


    But as long as I've gone to the trouble of posting, I have to ask J-D to explain his math to me:
    I mean, 2+3+13≠22, at least not when I went to school. :confused:
     
  10. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    yep, I momentarily joined the hard-of-thinking there
    18, not 22. doesn't really spoil the argument though

    posts amended to avoid confusion
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  11. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    Personally, I think its a human problem not limited to martial arts, but by definition, martial arts OS going to foster a stronger ego. The problem being if what is in the personality is crap, then a stronger ego with all its qualities is going to lead to a stronger personality with all its issues. It's not all that hard to insist on a standard and let people go who won't conform to it because in the end u have a stronger organization, same with a school, if someone doesn't want to work at being better then why promote them? If the answer is "ill lose money if I insist on standards" then maybe u should have kept your day job in order to do what your passionate about, but if you are going to make a living teaching martial arts you need to have enough charisma and leadership ability to get people to follow a standard otherwise u end up compromised by ur need for income
     
  12. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    I enjoy the discussion of STANDARDS! This is passion! The only thing i would add at this time is do you want to own MCDojo (inferring to McDonalds, with food sub par) or a 5 Star Restaurant (maybe like a Gordon Ramesy sytle)? which one has better food? (and yes I like the fries at McD's but nothing else! And they are not good for me either!) :whistle::whistle:
     
  13. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    To some extent, I see the problem of 'dumbing down' in the martial arts (such as allowing big fat, unfit and uncoordinated people to get their black belt), as being symptomatic and a reflection on how things are going generally. It's no longer acceptable to tell people they're not good enough — poor dears! Everyone's a winner babe, and that's no lie!

    You've only got to watch shows on television such as the X-Factor to see how some people are totally delusional as far as their own abilities are concerned. They truly think that they sound great, and they simply can't believe it when Simon Cowell (or whoever) tells them that they're actually cr*p!

    So the fatties come to class (and I'm not just talking about WKSA here either). They go through the motions. They get allowances made for them because they're fat. Or because 'they're trying their best', and they get promoted at each grading test because, at the end of the day, the instructor knows they're helping to pay his overheads.

    I have wrestled with this conundrum for many years now and, in a lot of ways feel that the following model (not exactly word-for-word from where it was taken) has a lot going for it:

    'Within my martial art system's structure, there is no formalised grading or ranking. Instead, I simply certify people when I feel the time is right. The certification is based on their ability to pass on what they know, as well as their ability to perform it. There is no guarantee that this will ever lead to promotion to Instructor level.'
     
  14. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    Yup pugil, mediocrity is rampant in society, and its politically incorrect moat of the time to say its wrong
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I still hold that this all belongs on a different thread. :rolleyes:

    But I'm confused about this statement:
    Even though a MOAT is manmade, do you mean that people can get slowed down in making progress, as if stuck in a bog or quagmire (no "Family Guy" pun intended - giggity giggity goo!)? Or are you making reference to the fact that it's easier to be judgmental of others than it is of yourself (first attend to the BEAM in your own eye before attempting to remove the MOTE from your friend's/brother's eye)?

    Please help, I'm so confused! :confused:
     
  16. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    Although all are funny pins and good points it was pre-coffee, big thumbs, and predictive text, thanks for making me laugh though, giggity. Most, was the word I was looking for.
     
  17. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    BTW, I tried to go back and edit my spelling but it wouldn't let me
     
  18. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    I just don't get it! Why would any instructor give up on their student. Lets put money aside and focus on the student. What is quality instruction does every student have to be a Master Sung Jin or Master Steve Seo is that your comparison? Are any of you that good? I'm not, I struggle just like my students do, I'm not perfect and I don't require that of my students. You all must be exceptional MAist congratulations. I wish you would tell me your secret training methods that produce such high skill levels. You must all be revered in your areas as the best.

    Or is it that you are frustrated that you can't build your enrollment to a sustainable level and the cop out is that its because your standards are too high for the masses and you only teach the very elite and best athletes, and discard the people that need you the most.

    We teach patience, perseverance, and discipline. But it seems you have none yourself. Teach by example and show a little compassion for your customers.
     
  19. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    I think obewan that there is merits to both sides of this, some people lack compassion for others and some are chasing the dollar, my point was that if you open a school and you aren't financially solvent you end compromising your standards, compassion is sometimes being tough on people who aren't living to their potential, but being mean to people who give a hundred percent is just mean.
     
  20. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    How can I say this? . . . oh yeah, sig-worthy, definintely sig-worthy. :cool:
     

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