The karate kihon thread!

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Fish Of Doom, Jun 20, 2010.

  1. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    according to wiki, it's an upwards strike to the plexus in daito-ryu

    anyway, kihon

    ****o-ryu - uke waza - kake uke (hooking reciever. not literal translation, don't know the real meaning since kake appears to mean gambling)

    basic technique
    hold main hand near plexus with arm in neutral position, check forwards with the off-hand in an inwards circle (as if doing a teisho or osae uke). partially extend main hand forwards in a short horizontal arc, coming from below the checking hand, with the palm facing sideways or partly upwards, while the off-hand goes to the plexus in a almost neutral position, palm facing partly forwards.
    as the off-hand reaches the plexus, the main hand rotates while moving outwards, making a grabbing motion, with the wrist abducted (pinky to elbow). it's important not to flex the wrist (ie don't bring the palm to the forearm), since this affects the grip, making it more a pinch grip, whereas it should be a crush grip, and almost resemble a clawing technique. as the hand's rotation finishes, contract the latissimus dorsi on that side and bring the grabbing hand's elbow tight to the ribs.
    the grabbing hand usually ends up at around 45 or 50 degrees from parallel to the floor, but it's not uncommon to end up lower (i tend to end up with the hand almost parallel, for example). the koshi can turn slightly towards gyaku-hanmi on the off-hand parry, and hanmi on the hooking motion, but this is rarely seen except when in neko-ashi dachi, where the motion is natural. some people skip the main hand rotation and just sweep sideways. the grabbing hand should be at the same height as the shoulders, and the hand position should be nearly symmetrical (off-hand is usually pulled back a bit and not rotated as much).

    the basic use of this is to parry with the off-hand and grab and pull with the main hand (this is why the hips can be turned, to help get the torso out of the attack trajectory. you can either train parrying and grabbing one attack, or parrying one and grabbing another (hence the circular motion and rotation of the hand on the grab). a more advanced application is parrying and grabbing an attack from the main hand's side with the off-hand, pulling across the body (tai sabaki helps), and slipping the grabbing hand under the opponent's arm (think underhook) to grab the clavicle, trapezius or throat with hira-basami (clawing grip. lit. flat [of the hand/palm] scissors), or even a shuto or seiryuto uchi to the neck or face.

    these three katas contain kake uke (notice the straighter movement in bassai-dai, a shuri kata, and the rounder movement in shisochin and seisan, naha katas. this is also partly due to personal preference, but some schools make you distinguish between the two)

    [ame=""]YouTube- Bassai Dai ****o Ryu[/ame] bassai dai
    [ame=""]YouTube- Shisochin ****o Ryu[/ame] shisochin
    [ame=""]YouTube- Seisan ****o Ryu[/ame] seisan
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010
  2. shoshinkan

    shoshinkan Valued Member

    Hi Gary,

    The arm is very much in front of the head in terms of distance, our forearm bends just over 90 degrees towards the attack, this is the unbendabile arm positon.

    Fingers don't face down but across, you look straight at your thumb, we don't rotate back to our heads or anything, and use the outside of the arm to deflect.

    Formally there can be a little more rotation than I like to teach but it is there, it is certainly not as much as the Japanese systems.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010
  3. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I think it was Fish Of Doom found the literal translation a while ago and it was "chasing punch".
  4. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    That's an interesting link, thanks for that Gary. I always tried to execute mine at the same time the foot landed but the idea of the toes gripping the ground is something I might need to play around with.

    Even though it's not standard Kyokushin fare, my group really likes training oitsuki from a natural stance and then stepping into it much like in Ten no kata. Another bit we do often is again something we picked up from one of the sensei who was big into Shinzato's style of Shorin Ryu. It's more a drill to feel the "right" way to do oitsuki but it does teach some good body mechanics. We essentially lead with the hips, slowly transferring the weight more and more forward right until we feel like we're going to almost fall over and then BAM, execute the oitsuki. To get a more relaxed feel we'll sometimes just use shotei rather than seiken.
  6. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

  7. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Hi Afhuss,

    I think it is one of those poetic terms often used in Japanese ma to describe things that perhaps have a deeper meaning than maybe first apparent.

    Take for example the lifting and then placing back down of the foot in Naihanchi kata - This is often referred to as "Nami-Geashi" or returning wave - not immediately apparent but when you put it into context makes sense.

  8. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    In think they are some excellent training tips Kuma.

    I also like training Junzuki from natural stance - it’s a very good way to utilse the potential energy of gravity - by using the drop into the technique.

    We also incorporate "Kette" into our ido kihon and this helps realise the dropping effect into the tsuki - as you have the added inertia of your kicking leg pulling you onto the punch that follows.

    Also, I agree training using shotei is not a bad thing, as it helps relieve tension. We say "punch with an egg in your hand".

    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
  9. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Hi Fish, sorry, will try to get this back on topic.

    As far as I understand it "Kake" (or Kage) means hook, although I have heard my Sensei refer to it as "key"???

    That said, I notice you refer to both the blocking hand (and the "off-hand" -which I guess you mean other hand?) in your descriptions.

    Many kata have double handed techniques where in, the hands perform completely independent functions to each other (to teach you how to use to hands differently/independently). Sometimes they are of course combined (in terms of applied functionality).

    We use Kake a lot in our paired kata (as you would expect from a jujutsu based style) - but it also features heavily in our solo kata.

    Pinan Yondan is where it first appears (with your accompanying chudan otoshi uke) however further up the scale, the Kake uke is realised in its independance in kata like Seishan and Niseishi.

    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
  10. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Kake uke, and ura kake uke are blocks I implement most in kumite (no gloves kumite, at least). In our basic one-steps it usually leads to a trap or grab. Kata bunkai is sometimes looked at as kake uke being shuto strike.
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    sup gary. according to, kake means gambling, while kagi means hook or key (kage means shadow, it's another thing entirely :p. although given terms like keri and tachi, "gake" might be a suffix form of the word).

    yeah, in ****o kake uke is a single technique incorporating two or three different motions (usually parry, grab pull), while doing only the grab (as in seienchin before the uppercuts) y called kake te.

    i just watched a vid of ohtsuka doing niseishi, and i see what you mean. it appears much more similar to the shorin version (seen in bassai dai and sochin, for example), whereas ****o's kake uke is from naha-te.
  12. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Wouldn't that be Shutouchi then?

    I guess it’s always possible to combine the two, but as I see it; Kake is a receiver/way to pull you opponent to where your want them to be - like a fish on a hook?

    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
  13. shoshinkan

    shoshinkan Valued Member

    I thought Kake meant or leant towards a hooking action?
  14. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    We are on the same wave-length it would seem.

  15. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Yeah Gary, you're right. We have kake uke in some of our kata; geksai ni, seiunchin, others. Some of the bunkai we are expected to make up ourselves and it is not too uncommon to see guys interpret one of the kakeuke or ura kake uke as a shuto long as we could explain it logically, our teachers didn't mind given the whole "technique hidden within kata" deal.
  16. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    I'd call it jodan age uke but its being used for something else. :p

    and I dont think the word jodan is that redundant btw. You also rise your arm to put it at chudan level as well. It can also be a rising, its just not as high as jodan. I find jodan helps clarify that its at head level protect face rather than at solar plexus/chest level.

    well dear god :p

    I wouldnt think they need to actually specify . Soto mean outside, Obviously your fist is by your ear when you set for it and its bringing it inwards. Uchi means inside your fist is in or by your armpit when you set and your arm is gonna go outwards.
  17. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Jodan means more about what is being targeted, whereas age is more about the upward motion of the block. You can use both but it is a bit redundant since it basically loosely translates to "upper rising block" when either of the two would work.

    For what it's worth, I've always referred to it as plain old jodan uke.

    There is a lot of confusion just by the two defintions. Even from your own post ("Soto mean outside, Obviously your fist is by your ear when you set for it and its bringing it inwards.") you can see where opinions collide. Some choose to call it by where the block ends up, some choose to call it by where the block originates from.

    You can see the difference between this uchi uke....
    [ame=""]YouTube- Uchi Uke By Kagawa sensei,MORE ABOUT KARATE AT[/ame]

    And this uchi uke....
    [ame=""]YouTube- uchi uke tsuki[/ame]

    That's why we often have to show video or describe which techniques in particular we're talking about so we're all mostly on the same page.
  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    nope, usually you don't, since they're already at chudan level (chudan is everything from your clavicles to your lower abcomen). and a rising block at chudan level would just push the attack into your face :p.

    someone did not read the rest of my post :D
  19. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    I've never heard of anyone calling that block by where the block ends up. Its always where it originates. Not in our shotokan association anyways. Maybe someone outside......or from a different MA?

    cause i wanted to respond to that sentence :D
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    someone did not read the rest of my post :D:D:D

    cardinal forum sin, there, you know? :p

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