Actually I have taken Tai Chi classes Mr.Knowitall. I just said that I am not an expert because I am not. Also, you're just upset that I was right and you were wrong. As well, the only reason I acted "emotionally" as you said was because your reply post was insultory. So naturally, it angered me and I acted in kind. What did you expect to happen?
vampyre_rat - I'll always remember something one of my teachers told me. Look at two people in "peak physical condition" - One is a professional body builder and the other one is a lumberjack (yeah yeah, we've all heard the song). While the body builder will be able to pick up and put down a heavier weight from a static position, who would you say has the most "strength" or "power"? The lumberjack of course. He'd beat the body builder in a test of endurance, any cardio exercise, any strength test matched with coordination, etc. And it's also a good bet that while the body builder will be getting lower back operations and hernias operated on when he's in his 40s, the lumberjack will be swigging back the whiskey and chopping wood well into his 70s.
Whatever. I'm over this argument now. I'm willing to let bygones be bygones. (if that is how it's spelt which I am pretty sure it is not)
I’m glad you’re over it now, have some hot coco, Mommy will tuck you in and you have a nice dream about gnomes and fairies.
Hello, this is your friendly local moderator joining in. This thread is close to being a bit much on the "attack" scale so lower the tone a bit okay folks. As much as I like a good argument, we watch the personal attacks pretty closely here.
Yes, I think it would be nice to get back to a civilized discussion without interruptions *Borderline personal atack deleted in the interests of world peace * Anyways, I would like to raise the topic of which one either 'Tai Chi Belly' or 'Six Pack' is better for defending your body. I believe the 'Tai Chi Belly' has several advantages. Firstly at high levels it can be used to not merely take hits but to absorb them, and redirect the force. Secondly, when expanded, the protection offered is greater as there is a larger barrier between the oncoming force and the internal organs. Thirdly, the 'Tai Chi Belly' is not only localized at the belly but expands to protect the ribs, solar plexus, lower and middle back. I'm not sure but I think at higher levels the whole of the back can be protected. (this clip may help demonstrate http://www.energyarts.com/shared/library/videogallery/breathemov.html , but its only a side view) Fourthly, I think a 'Tai Chi Belly' can also absorb much higher amounts of force. The grand master at our school had the front left tire of a 3 ton truck with 28 soldiers on board roll over his abdomen, advanced students/disciples at our school have to go through a similar test but with a pick up truck. I don’t think a 'Six Pack' could handle that. Finally, As mentioned previously, the internal organs are not compacted together in to a small space, thus encouraging greater blood flow and circulation. Lowers the centre of gravity. Facilitates in absorbing greater amounts of air, encouraging greater health, and power.
Yep I will certainly agree to disagree with you there... the way you have described weight training (above) is from a very layman point of view... firstly I should point out I am talking from a free weights point of view and that this particular type of weight training does not isolate muscle groups completely, but will in fact work lots of the other smaller groups around the muscle you are working... eg bench press does not only work chest but also shoulders, triceps, and if you really want to break it down to even the smallest amount of work it generally works the whole body... same with squats (which btw I fully believe has helped me with my stances)... deadlifts are another good all over body ex... there are many of them... the body does indeed have many muscles (216 or so cant remember the exact number) but with a very good program they can generally all be worked to some extent... and how hard you go is up to you... also there is an instinctive way to work outs... so you listen to your body and not just whats written on the sheet in front of you... something I do all the time... weight training does in fact develop ligament and tendon strength, although I agree depending on the program not to the same speed as muscle strength is developed initially, but again you can develop a program to target tendons/ligaments... I dont really agree with you on the motor coordination point either... especially where free weights are concerned... if youre not coordinated or dont learn coordination then you will injure your self and in fact you really need to fine tune your balance and whole body coordination the more advanced you become in weight lifting... again I will state that one of the reasons I have taken up taiji is for balance... to develop my internal strength along with my external... yin and yang... cant have one with out the other I found out at last... You also make the comparison with a lumber jack and bber... well I was talking about general weight lifting but... bbers are as healthy as anybody and a good deal healthier than most... its true they train for pretty much one purpose and thats to get big... and strong... but size and symmetry are first and foremost in their line of work... of course you forgot to say the lumber jack will suffer from major joint pain and surgery due to the repetative chopping... arthritis... and back pain due to his work... also a bber may have more power and endurance depending on type of training... you just cant generalise like that... (although I do agree that a lumber jack will beat a bber hands down in a treefelling exercise... I would put the money on the bber in a benchpressing ex...) VR... you make a good point there... maybe a good topic for discussion... how much work/exercise would be considered detrimental to taiji...??? I mean I have just finished our garden, took me a few weeks with some very physical work, did this hinder my progress... sure gave me back pain and was really only working my back and arms...... with the ethos that isolating a muscle group is detrimental to taiji that means I was doing more harm than good... (of course there is NO WAY I would tell my wife I wont do the garden as it will be affecting my taiji... then I really would be a shadow.....)
Re Taiji belly... well I think it is certainly good for breathing and relaxation... and think that the more relaxed we become the more taiji belly we will get... (I must be pretty damned relaxed...lol)... but one thing... the prevalent thing about 6 packs here has been that they must always be tense and in an inwards direction.. that is not true... many bbers today have 6 packs and look pregnant ie they have very relaxed bellys.. due to belly breathing proving its value in exercises like squats and so forth..... (its become a hot topic of debate on bbing forums)... so you can still have a 6 pack as long as the bf (bodyfat) is low enough and still be relaxed to have a taiji belly... also some people have tighter mid sections than others... mine isnt particularly tight but my friend (who has been practicing taiji alot longer than me consequently) has quite a tight midsection... and he breathes from the belly.. go figure...
Don’t normally quote myself. Anyway, I think that after doing heavy physical activity, Tai Chi and Qi Gong will help your body recover faster and realign any internal structures that may have been displaced by lifting heavy weights. But, constant physical exertion such as required with weight training is detrimental as mentioned above. Another theme you may want to look in to is 'Qi Dispersion', this is caused by the muscles becoming too tense and large, which makes your Qi disperse as opposed to flow, thus preventing you from feeling the subtle energies either wholly or partly, and in turn prevents one from applying Tai Chi principles in action. I’m not saying that you cant weight train and do Tai Chi, but I think that Tai Chi may enhance your weight training, whereas you weight training will hinder your Tai Chi. I think that if you really want to be a Tai Chi player, you have to decide which is most important to you ‘Tai Chi’ or ‘Weight Training’ I’ve been in the same boat, and went with Tai Chi. As a result I lost two stone in muscle, but have much greater feeling, balance, coordination, energy, speed, perception and various other subtle phenomenon. Just recently I decided to lift some weights to see how much weaker I have gotten, and to my surprise the difference is only about 25%, and I worked out rigorously for a good 3 years, reaching a maximum bench of 110 kg. Generally I think the gains from Tai Chi outweigh the sacrifices by far. Furthermore it is something that you can train well in to old age, but with weight lifting, sooner or later your joints and ligaments are going to start wearing thin, after which your in for a life of pain, I would think.
Yep, I am quoting my own post again.. I assume my comment was deleted by Kwajman, anyway mate I though it was more of a compliment than a personal attack.
Theres a lot of different topics being thrown in at the same time here. I would like to say that I have been at the "external" martial arts for a few years and have just recently picked up tai chi on the side. My sifu has a "taji belly" when his shirt is on but when he takes his shirt off you can clearly see a well defined abdominal section, round six packs kind of. Having low percentage of body fat should have no effect on how much you can develop your diaphragm and other muscles. I for one dont see why six packs and having tensed abs are related here either, I always have a six pack, when Im sleeping, when im running, when Im eating, why is there a need to tense it? The same with biceps, quadricepts and all other muscles, they just show.
Hey Cybermonk, From my personal experience, when I used to work out, I would always flex my abs inwards during sit-ups. From this I believe my abs were tight even when they were not flexed, in the same way if you work out your biceps, your muscles remain hard long after you stop. Personally this is what I mean when I say having a six pack. In other words the abdominal wall is tense due to constant exercise. But like you say, for a six pack to be visible all you need is less body fat. But what I am trying to demonstrate is that on average a six pack is tense and not very mobile due to post work out tension, additionally from my experience it can only be flexed inwards. Whereas a ‘Tai Ji Belly’, irregardless of whether a six pack can be seen or not, can be flexed in or expanded out, maintains softness, flexibility and a full range of movement if incorporated correctly in to Tai Chi forms.
From seeing your post I then cant see the discussion with taiji belly vs six pack if you are able to obtain a taiji belly and a sixpack. I really dont see the use of body fat to generate force, maybe for better impact absorbtion.
The muscle may be harder after training it but that is in the main part due to blood flowing into the area... its not necessarily tense... but I do agree with Cybermonk here and think that the misconception is that if you have muscles showing then you must be tense...
Having a six pack doesn't mean you are tensing up your abs. You can have muscle definition (which means you can actually see the muscle, as in a six pack) without 'flexing', it's just there. Like I said, gravity and breathing develop your abdominal muscles. Low body fat will allow you to see it.
I agree with you, but there are a lot of folk out there who don't get it, so wonder around sucking their gut in. Tensing their belly. Conversely there are a lot of people who have the six pack and are relaxed. There are those with low body fat, with a naturally occuring 6-pack. So what I was trying to say was that people tend to try to make themselves look thinner/more tones by sucking their gut in and tensing their belly. Maybe the use of the 6-pack term was not really appropriate.
