The Infamous Taiji Belly

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Sandus, Sep 25, 2004.

  1. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    Does anybody know why Taiji practitioners always get that beer gut? Where does it come from? And is there any way to avoid it or get rid of it once you've got it?
     
  2. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Breathing from the dantien.

    In taiji you're taught the correct way to breathe is with your stomach, and not to raise the chest. There's some old chinese saying that says the older you are the higher your breath gets (or something like that).

    Breathing from the stomach makes sense from a health pov because you strengthen your stomach muscles, develop more power, and of course get a lot more oxygen. Unfortunately, you also get the big gut.

    Of course, as you get older your body settles and everyone naturally develops a pot belly. It just happens to be that while the idols of many other martial arts (with six pack stomachs) are in their early 30s to 40s, many taiji practitioners would never be considered a "master" until they're at least in their 60s.

    I suppose you just have to choose - do you want a six pack or do you want to be healthier?

    As for getting rid of it.. DON'T change your breathing. You'll never develop real internal power without learning correct breathing. But maybe you could try pilates and core strengthening exercises. Also, training yourself to have correct posture makes it a lot better (e.g. I've taken the back of my chair off and raised my monitor at work so I have to sit up straight when I work on the computer).
     
  3. KungFuGirl

    KungFuGirl Valued Member

    Um, you can't breathe with your stomach. You can swallow air...

    Do you mean your diaphragm?! Breathing with your diaphragm is better for you as you take in more air. Deep breathers tend ot have better health than shallow breathers.

    Also, I really don't think that has to do with the pot belly. I mean if you take a lot of air into your stomach you just get gas, which of course, can bloat you but it doesn't give you a pot belly!?!

    I think your old age theory is more accurate.
     
  4. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Yep, of course you're breathing with your diaphram but the correct way is to relax your stomach muscles down so you feel like you're breathing deeply into your stomach (rather than raising your chest).

    Just look at the tenors.
     
  5. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    And there was me thinking it was a lack of hard athletic training
    :rolleyes:
     
  6. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    hmm did anyone saw chen xio wang or chen xio wing having pot belling? what about Grandmaster Yao chuan(yi quan)?

    I think after practicing yrs after yrs masters get burned out n get lazy :D ;)

    -TkdWarrior-
     
  7. gedhab

    gedhab Valued Member

    lazy....i dont think so, although you cant ignore the ageing process :rolleyes:
     
  8. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    A six-pack is, at best, a hindrance to many of the coolest styles. :( But you get that legendary Chinese health thing out of it and the internal power is real.
     
  9. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    Actually if most people could lose the final layer of fat from their stomach area, they would have six packs. All it takes is gravity and breathing. The reason you see a lot of body-builders with visible six packs is that they have very low body fat.
     
  10. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Everyone has a six pack. Mine's insulated :)
     
  11. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    I wouldn't worry about getting rid of it. Just gotta keep it strong. No sense having a flat belly with little muscle. Besides: a big hard gut is like armor when you take hits :D
     
  12. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    I agree, althought I have a six pack(didnt have a say in it, it just happened) I would rather have really strong abdominal muscles than just go for the weak six pack everybody wants now a days.
     
  13. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    It's not your fault! You can be redeemed!!!! :D
     
  14. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    If you look at the body shape of other primates you will see that they do not have 'six packs', they have belly, and quite large at that, in fact the same sort of shape you get from training abdominal breathing. Another interesting fact is that these primates are a lot stronger and resilient than humans. Chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA, however at the age of seven a chimp is five times stronger than an average adult male, in the sense of how much force the animal can exert per Kg, and this goes up to seven at the age of twelve.

    Abdominal breathing not only strengthens the whole of the abdominal wall, front sides and back, but increases the muscle mass of these muscles, this also lowers the centre of gravity. This group of muscles is very large, however, I would think most people have very small range of movement with them. Furthermore when an individual has a six pack, the organs are packed in together, in a relatively small space, amongst other things this can restrict their optimal blood supply.

    However, if you practice abdominal breathing and get rid of fat, you can develop a six pack, because the abdominal breathing works and strengthens these muscles significantly, as I think someone has mentioned. But, when such a six pack is developed, it is not normally visible, unless the practitioner contracts these muscles inside, as opposed to outside, which is the point of abdominal breathing. So if one wishes to have a six pack one could keep his muscles tight, but that defies the point of doing these exercises in the first place.
     
  15. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    Also we are taught to relax the ab muscles when breathing which means that the belly will protrude as we are not tensing them...
     
  16. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    I would just like add that when we expand the Tai Chi belly, such as in a reverse breath, it is not going solid because of muscular contraction, but because the the 'Qi' in the 'tan tien' is expanded, or you could say the breath has expanded the belly, much like a ball.
     
  17. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    I am not sure that is a valid point, ants are a lot stronger than chimps and humans yet they dont have bellies. I think chimp's bellies are related to high ammounts of body fat, the same with other animals, its a survival mechanism.
     
  18. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hey Cybermonk,

    The great apes that I am referring to, live in tropical and subtropical climates, I don’t think they have high or even moderate amounts of body fat. Now I’m no Jane Goodall, at least I don’t think I am. But I’ve been to the zoo quite a few times, and if you have a close look and a feel of these animals, as I have, mainly due to people wanting me in the photo, you can feel that they are very bony, and you can quite clearly see and feel their sinews and bones. I don’t think this would be the case if they were fat, so to speak. Thus, I don’t think the shape of their bellies is due to fat, but to muscular structure. One reason for that is these animals are mostly plant eaters and have to consume large amounts of food, thus require large viscera. However, if we examine these animals closely, for example a Chimp or an Orangutan, we see that the belly is big, and what the media refers to as ‘unshapely’, yet the arms and legs are very slender and flexible. These animals can generate huge amounts of force, yet their bodies contradict the common Western belief that muscle size equals strength. One should also remember that IMA’s were in part derived from mimicking the internal principles within animal movements. As mentioned previously a Chimp shares 98% of our DNA, if you got an adult Chimp and a human, put them side by side, the human would generally be bigger and have more muscle mass, but the Chimp would be much stronger. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that from doing IMA’s, or in other words disciplines that use coordinated wholly body power, low centre of gravity and abdominal breathing, our bodies start to move like and resemble those of our much stronger and agile distant relatives, and with enough practice can also project huge amounts of force.

    I think you would have a better idea of what I mean, if you went to the zoo and fought a chimp.. Na… just playing, if you basically went down there and had a look at these specific attributes of their bodies with the above concepts in mind.

    Then again, maybe were both right, and one thing can serve more than one purpose in nature.

    Cheers..

    ZB
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2004
  19. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    I think the way animals store fat is different to ours. Look at dogs for example, fat dogs have skinny legs and a big body and belly area. I dont think comparing the strength generated by other animals to the strength generated by humans is valid because animals have a different make up, even though if its only 2% difference. An ant also contradicts the western notion that muscle mass equals strength and so do spiders, some of which can jump 100 times their body's length but yet have very little muscle.
     
  20. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hey Cybermonk,

    In a sense that is sort of what I mean. The general human way of building strength through building muscle (working out) is not that effective, and animals do this naturally much better than us. Who is to say that we cant do the same, I think that is what IMA’s do.

    I don’t really see the point of comparing us with dogs. They are a completely different sort of mammal than apes, though I am sure many principals are repeated in the structure of both apes and canines.

    But with regards to insects, this does not apply at all. They live under completely different physical rules than mammals, primates especially. In other words the ‘Physics’ that effects us effects them much differently due to their size.

    I’m not too sure what you mean by ‘animals have a different make up’, I hear they test quite a lot of human make up on animals. Na, really, could you elaborate please?

    Cheers..
     

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