The Good in the Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Crow, May 6, 2007.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I can't understand why anyone would suggest that traditional training is only at a long distance

    A small number of kata have the attacker in ichimonji/seigan etc, but it's in the minority
    There are kata from various grabbing distances, including strikes. There are kata from sucker punch distance, there are kata where your attacker walks up to you or past you then attacks suddenly, there are kata where you are attacked from behind etc etc

    There is a tendency for some clubs to spend a disproportionate amount of time attacking from the long range of ichimonji/seigan, but you only have to have a cursory look at the curriculum of the schools to see the balance that they developed
     
  2. Crucio

    Crucio Valued Member

    Exactly. Plus the different techniques, like omote gyaku, i've been shown how to use in a variety of ways: from grabs, grab and punch, punch, moving to the left, right, back, diagonal left/right, forward, with weapons, etc. And i'm not advanced at all, so it's not some secret advanced training.
     
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    A fair few of the videos you have shared, that I like BTW were from the long range I talked about. A vast majority of BBT video from a Recognized shihan or not, is done from the ichimonji long range attack.. I have only seen a few that were from the appropriate in your face range.
     
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    If we look at the Gyokko Ryu 1st level:
    - 3 begin with the aforementioned attack
    - 2 grabs with a punches
    - 1 grab to the front lapel
    - 2 lapel grabs from behind
    - 1 kick from in front followed by a punch
    - 1 choke from behind
    - 1 bear hug from behind
    - 1 sort of full nelson

    This kind of balance is quite common in the curriculum and I think training cross these scenarios is quite important I feel
     
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I have seen that list before Dunc. However, from what I have seen, many never stop doing endless henka of the attacks from ichimonji. Every time they demo its from the long range.
     
  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter


    Repeating my point for clarity

     
  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    That in no way addresses my point.
     
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Appropriate for what?

    Number of things.

    What are the waza and kata training?
    Where do they fit in the hierarchy of the curriculum?
    Who is the intended audience/student?

    Spend any significant amount of time in the Buj and you will do stuff using various maai.
     
  9. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I think I said the appropriate range with the "in your face" bit.. That still does not explain why so many videos from EVERYONE good or not, is the long range attack. I have seen only a slight slight few that are not from the unrealistic long range. Defending attacks from long range, you can see coming from next week, do not teach you to defend attacks from kissing range..
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Like I said

    What techniques are being shown or if it helps what lesson is being taught via those techniques or kata?

    Where do those techniques fit in the hierarchy of whatever they are related to?

    Who is the intended audience or potential audience?

    Those will pretty much explain the prevalence for a specific maai being shown over another.

    I suppose you could add another.

    What technical level are those who are performing the technique at?
    I don't necessarily mean rank there.
     
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Dean, the videos im talking about are not specific kata, but just demonstrations..

    Now every kata video I have seen is also from long range.. Just about every video in this thread for instance. Every kata on the Koto ryu Dvd which you can see on Youtube for free now, so on so forth. The unarmed segment of the armored Kukishin ryu dvd was also like that..
     
  12. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Apologies

    My point is that people should look at the spectrum of attacks developed by the ryuha. This teaches how to attack and defend from many different ranges and scenarios

    I understand the point being made. However, if people are spending all their time practising only long range attacks then they are, in my view, going to develop incorrectly
     
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Demonstrations of material that ultimately has its roots in a certain part of a curriculum from one of the ryu.

    Even if it's just some improvised stuff the same questions can be applied. Those doing the waza will have something in mind, principles and lessons will be being shown, or at the very least their current understanding of such things.

    So where is it coming from? Is it something they've picked up in honbu? Is it something from a yearly theme? Look to the roots and you get your answer.

    Again apply the questions to those clips or DVDs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  14. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    That is what im trying to say Dunc. I like your videos, I am hoping you could do some demonstrating just that point. I would love to see some demo and kata from close range. Addressing more modern retracting boxing style strikes.
     
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Basically they are still in the shallow end of the pool.
     
  16. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Dean im sorry, but im not as smart as you are. I don't know how it is your questions will help me answere why 2 different ryu are attacking from long range in the dvd's I have, and why so many random demo's are the same way.

    I mean, just look in the bad thread, at the red man suit training. Even then, in a totally impromptu(but failed) training session, it was all long range ichi style attacks.
     
  17. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I guess I should clarify, that I understand that some kata and what not will have specific range for doing things. That part is not in contention with me. What is, is why so many demo's are at the long range. Why are none of them at the close range, using realistic striking.

    Also, I was under the impression that Koto ryu was a CQC school, so why was the entire thing done at long range..
     
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Basically you are looking at a multilayered system or systems, so you have to first appreciate what layer you are looking at or at what point in a student's development you might be at or be observing.

    If someone is not flexible in their use of maai then they have gaps in their understanding, yes certain arts might favour specific combative distances but there is still flexibility.

    There's lots of long distance telegraphing nonsense because there are an awful lot of poor performers in the Buj. However a lot of stuff shown in clips is also aimed at a certain level of student or from a certain part of a school's curriculum.

    A nice example of expanding and contracting maai is in Jojutsu, yeah I know it's weapons, it's a weapon that has a lot of flexibility and as a result you will see a range of distances being used throughout a kata. What you will also notice is that such things get more complex as a student works through the various technical levels of a school.

    Unarmed isn't much different and it will abide by similar rules with regards to technical proficiency.
    If someone hasn't got the stuff in their bones then they will struggle.

    Context is king. You ask about realistic striking and distance but is anything you've looked at intended for such a thing or is it anachronistic in nature?

    Old arts require adaptation and that requires a good understanding of the material and the context it will be used in.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  19. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Dean, Thank you for your responses. You mention that old arts require adaption, well I am sure a certain member here would chime in how they are more then capable of dealing with modern striking..

    I guess my issue was, I didn't get to see or do enough when I was in. Our highest was a 4th dan, and he was in no hurry to test. In fact he was the only Dan member there besides our teacher. So we spent a lot of time on Color belt stuff.
     
  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Problem with working against Boxing is that you need a competent Boxer.

    Modern HAOV (habitual acts of violence) however can have some striking similarities to some of the scenarios you come across in the older arts.
     

Share This Page