The Gambeson

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Polar Bear, Feb 1, 2008.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well I have decided to make my own gambeson. The reason being I want one that fits well and has the protection I want. Plus I want it in black and not that awful natural colour.

    Has anyone else here made one before?
    What type of filling did you use?
    How did you stitch yours up?

    I have been looking at transit blankets for filling as this seems to be a favourite for the re-enactment crowd. Black cotton canvas outer later wth satin inner. If I can be bothered I intend to trim the seams with black leather.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2008
  2. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    First off, what pereod do you do, and what do you mean with gamberson?

    Padded textile armor have been made in different ways at different times, and naming can be pretty confusing. The following is mostly relevant if you're about 1350-1450:

    This one: http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/garments/Charles_blois/pourpoint.jpg is called a pourpoint. According to written sources they were used beneath armor as armor-protection, but I think that this one in particular was not a pourpoint, but rather a a padded piece of civilian cloth (partly the reason why 99% of all daggertechniques shown in 14th/15th century manuals shows stabbing) Real pourpoints (not this galla-military padded jacket) were relatively thin (2-3 layers), tight-fitting "jackes"/doublets that had several laces sewn on for strapping on pieces of plate armor. One picture from roughly 1420 allso shows a "pourpoint" with mail sewn on to the areas where the plate does not cover.

    This one: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_ufarm_3.jpg is called a Jupon, and was usually pretty thin (3-5 layers of textiles), and was used above the plate armor, to protect it from rust.

    So there's actually not archaeological finds of a gamberson, so what is a gamberson? Some think it's a padded piece of textile to wear beneath mail, but some calls them panzers. Perhaps the "pourpoint" shown in the first link, is a proper gamberson? Perhaps the "jupon" in the second link is a "gamberson" if it's worn beneath amor, and a "jupon" if it's worn partly or entirely above plate armor?

    If you think about the thick padded clothes, used beneath mail, to stop blunt attacks, they were from a little earlier pereod, and could be quite thick (perhaps as much as 17 layers of wool/linen), and were either laced, buttoned or had no opening, and had to ble pulled over the head. Some extra thick padded garments were allso meant to be used on top of the mail, and usually only covered the torso/thigs, and they could have even more than 17 layers of textiles. Maciejewski bible is a good source for studying such garments.

    Other "jackets" that could be interresting for you to check out, is the thight-fitting, hip-long version of the "Houppelande" , "surcotes" or the "cotehardie"
    (this is a nice site for civilian clothing: http://www.maisonstclaire.org/resources/skin_out/skin_out.html ). Coat of plates, brigantines and coat of plates are allso garments that could be of interrest to you. Good luck in your search!
     
  3. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Stolenbjorn,
    I'm not a re-enactor so authenticity is irrelevant in my case. Basically I am trying to create a flexible but protective piece of armour to wear will freeplaying. The armour must protect from my nect to my knees.

    The Bear.
     
  4. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    In that case, you should focus on the areas where bone lies close to the skin, like elbows and wrists (perhaps allso shoulders) You should leave openings in the arm-pits, so some heat might dissipate.

    I suggest no more than 3-5 layers on belly/back, and around 10 layers around elbow, collarbone, rib-cage, shoulders, wrists, etc. you could go for integrated mittons, but make sure that you keep a good grip on the sword, so no tectiles in the palm. The layers should vary, depending on the thickness of the textiles you sow with, but in general I strongly advise you to skip the stuffed ones, as the stuffing tends to sag. Basically sow together 3-5 "jackets", and add on extra layers on the mentioned areas.

    It's going to feel stiff, warm and uncomfortable anyway, so if you're not interrested in historical accuracy, re-enactment, or "living history"(i.e. testing out archaeological finds and historical theories), I advise to use modern protection-outfit, like hockey-gear, riot-gear an the sorts :)

    It allso takes very much time to make a "gamberson", so buying one from eas-european online shops is allso a very good alternative to making one yourself.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2008
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I tried a few options but making a made to measure gambeson is looking like the best options. Plus I like the challenge of making it my self so I can work on developing my own protection level verses mobility. Also It means I can repair it as I know how it was made and make it look the way I want.

    The Bear.
     
  6. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    In that case; here's a picture of some "gambersons in action" during a winter training in Norway, theese are made for re-enactment, but is allso meant to stop blows from blunt metal weapons like axes, spears and swords: http://friknektene.no/Bilder/halden06/images/DSC_0100.jpgIf you still wants to make one, I advise you to make the torso in 4 sections, and sowing all the layers together (with a sewing machine), before assembling the sections, which in turn should be assembled with hand stitching (whipstitches), stitiching each layer together, beginning with the outerlayer first. This way, you don't get thick and uncomfortable areas where the sections are added.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2008
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Great shot by the way. Excellent reference for an illustration or painting. Are you in the shot or the one taking the shot?
     
  8. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Neither. The photograph is owned by the web-page I linked to. I have not copied the picture, as you can see, and I thought that since the picture is allready on the net, and not protected, It wouldn't be wrong to link to it. The people on the picture are aquaitences of mine, from different re-enactment-groups in Norway.

    There isn't many online photos of me where I'm satisified with the cloting I'm wearing. On this picutre, I wear a Jupon, that I tried to make look like this one: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_ufarm_2.jpg

    Here's the picture of me (I'm the one on the right): http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v142/205/28/733045223/n733045223_1586015_6088.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2008
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Stolen,
    How much time did it take for you to sew up a gambeson?

    The Bear.
     
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    No worries. I wasn't coming at it from that angle at all. I was just curious which one in there you were if you ended up like I always do in group shots... not in the shot because you were behind the camera. :D

    As far as linking to it or copying it or even downloading it. I could care less... as long as it's not some insanely obvious copyright infringement then it's fair game for discussions on the web anyhow.

    ahh.. cool cool. Interesting stuff! :)
    I find it interesting that there is so much similarity in western clothing and eastern/asian clothing of the same period. Although it's interesting... in that I heard the button never came into use in Asia until the west introduced it. The tops of just about everyone in that picture of your don't differ all that much from many of the Chinese shirts of around the same time. I wonder what it was that made the western world to put collars on everything? I guess at one point both sides said alright... sod this... time for t-shirt and jeans and flip flops. :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2008
  11. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Can I wear a big lumberjack flannel jacket instead? I would look cool.
     
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    As long as it works to stop a sword then wear what the hell you like.

    The Bear.
     
  13. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Well they are proven to stop axes and gayness, so I think they should be safe.
     
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 4, 2008
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    As long as the gayness is the Alexander the Great kind and not the limp wrist camp kind your welcome at the Duellists. Hell this thread is about sewing. Next thread is cooking on campaign. Followed closely by nursing for sword injuries. The manly arts after all.

    The Bear
     
  16. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    The handstitched one took me some 50 hours (i didn't count). If you make it entirely with machine, you can probably divide with 10, and if you do it the way I recomended in the previous post (whip-stitching and machine), you probably land somewhere around 10 hours, depending on how big stitches you make...-but thin thread, thin needle and small stitches gives the most solid result.
     
  17. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I just started to think loud. The avatar I use was a photo someone did take, and he wasn't extremely happy that I used it as an avatar, so I've started to be a little careful with taking photoes from the net (apart from private use). Linking to others' photos, on the other hand, is something I believe is OK

    Very interresting! Do you have links to 14th/15th century textile armor/padded "civilian" chineese clothing? Buttons in Europe emerged somewhere around the 13th century, I think. Clasp buttons were popular in migration pereod in Scandinavia, and in "Viking-age", I don't know of any buttons. Lacing, and buttons is the norm on pourpoints/gambersons. I love to discuss textiles :D (And I'm just back from training, where we've done full speed metal longswordsparring, and bareknuckle boxing, just to balance it out for the homophobics ;) )

    I think it was protection from stabs with dagger that was the reason.
     
  18. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Actually, a friend of mine that does safety-courses on the combat system mostly used in mass combat in Scandinavia, usually starts his class with a warning that goes roughly like this (just in norwegian): "OK, before we start this seminar, I'd just like to warn you that there's a real chanse that in one years time, you'll be spending a lot of time sewing and discussing textiles and stitching-techniques." Most of the rookies laughs it off, but then, one year later, they're discussing stitches, patterns and textiles. This week-end we had a winter training gathering, and it was so funny to see three women sitting in one corner discussing glaive-techniques, and some tough-looking guys sitting in another corner, discussing 14th century clothing :D
     
  19. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    Slightly later than our longsword period but the true renaissance man was supposed to be able to talk war with soldiers, the classics with scholars, romantic poetry with women and politics with weasels.
    I look forward to visiting Bears house in a few weeks and admiring his embroidered cushions! :D
     
  20. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Knowing my sewing skills cushions is probably all I'll manage.

    The Bear.
     

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