The future of Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Hiroji, Oct 17, 2006.

  1. karate_blckbelt

    karate_blckbelt New Member

    here here
     
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Wow, you've just made pretty much all of the ignorant newbie karate statements in one post. Kudos.
     
  3. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    Hehe - well put (one of your best posts!).
     
  4. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    Personally having gotten to a high Grade in Wado... I think the way forward for the style is having classes like my ninjutsu one: Full contact, age 16+. Why~? My dojo was an excellent place, we fought maximum effort, barefist, did defences, free sparring, some fun things like drop kicks and so on. We were trained hard and all of us worked hard. Lots of the people around my age excelled in fighting and kata competitions. I left for another youth group, return few years later. No longer spar without handpads... barely spar for that matter. School has nerfed into a family club. Sickens me to be honest.

    There is so much health and safety BS you can't do anything these days. A lot of the adult guys used to spar hard and have good fights, they were cool to train with because they were interested in the serious side of the art. Too many kids fail to appreciate what a martial art is and do it for a laugh or do it so they can magically beat people up.

    Karate I have always thought has behind the scenes been one of the more spiritual/philosophical arts. Karate Kid, those films were utter cheese but they shed light on what karate is about: Yourself. When you practice karate you are practicing against yourself as much as others, if you go into the ceremony of it is is all about respect, honour. Few people appreciate this and few people are interested in keeping karate 'pure'.

    Wado Ryu is a style combined with Jiu Jitsu. In our class we did some of that, some of the trapping and things. It was good but more recently that was forgotten! You can't just forget things.

    I think the key for the traditional styles of karate is that the traditional teachers, the mature and older teachers with the experience get together and focus and say look, we need to refine it, need to cut out the rubbish and get to the point. They need to work on maintaining everything karate is, in moral/philosophical values as much as the physical side of it.
     
  5. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Now this kinda thing just gets a big old "meh" from me.

    Daido Juku is a very good thing in that it mixes karate with judo, which is something I'd be big advocate of in all karate classes. However, the whole "wow, they wear fishbowls and beat the crap out of each other" is neither here nor there. Karate should not be made "more like muay thai" just because MT is popular amongst the UFC fanboys right now. If people want to do muay thai so badly, I'm sure there are hundreds of MT gyms just waiting for their custom.

    <edited out lots of UFC cussing, for the sake of diplomacy>


    You did say one thing I agree with though:

    So +1 to you for that! :D
     
  6. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    *Throws tantrum and inadvertently pees his pants*

    ;)

    I stumbled across this link on the main page and found it interesting.

    I do the ITF style of TKD over in the States and to be honest our future is in question when you compare us to styles like Olympic TKD. They wear foam body armor, are very flashy, and it is a Olympic sport. Hard to compete with that. But I'm not a big fan of the technique I see in the average club nor the tendency to leave your hands flopping down at your sides.

    To be honest I always felt a kinship to Shotokan Karate. From comparing techniques with practitioners over the years it is clear that we are an offshoot of Shotokan.

    As most of you know the popular opinion of those 'in the know' is that kata (we call them hyungs), point fighting, and traditional techniques (like the horse stance) are all worthless and part of a class where 'masters' try to hide behind a 'veil of secrecy'. We've all had that guy who comes in to ask about our class and says, "Do you do kata?" with a condescending smirk on his face.

    From my experience, however, all the traditional stuff has its place and is very useful. I did kickboxing/MT when I was young/had more time/not too smart. My experience there was the guys who were really dangerous were the athletic guys who came from a traditional background. Their techniques had power, they had good footwork, and they could literally drop you with one shot if you weren't careful.

    The guys who had come off the street with no background were typically pretty easy pickings. For one thing many of them hadn't been working on their flexibility for years so if they lifted their leg you knew it would be a thigh kick and no higher.

    This is nothing against Muay Thai, btw. It is a effective and devastating art. A guy who is good at Muay Thai is a very dangerous opponent. But because of the brutal training methods coming across a guy who had been training for years from a young age solely at Muay Thai was very rare (at least in my country). Its also not an art you can do long term. Beating the heck out of each others thighs is good for guys in their early 20s, but eventually that catches up with the body. Its great if your goal is competition in a ring sport (and maybe as a profession), but for your average practitioner who has a job and a family it just doesn't work.

    In short point fighting is a great way to train while still keeping your health. The misconception, as you guys know, is that point fighting is all about one kick/punch and stop. In training it is free play where people are throwing lots of combos and the higher ranks typically make light contact.

    The only thing I'd agree with in the MMA craze is that knowing a grappling style is good. I've started cross-training in Sambo and have brought a instructor into my school (mainly so I could take it ;) ). I won't lie to you and say that every student I have is now cross-trained in grappling and we are ready to take on the MMA hordes. A few, typically more athletically gifted, guys stay after and we roll. For those who don't want to do it...that is cool. We're not training to be professional fighters.

    At any rate I still train in the traditional way. I do katas/hyungs and all that 'garbage'. I see the MMA clubs popping up everywhere...they come and they go. In the meantime I know I'm training in a way I can still do until I'm in my 60s and beyond and keep my health. I know plenty of senior belts who are doing just that!
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006
  7. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Hmmm... Karate... I love it :)

    Ok, to be completely honest, I've been away from the Japanese Martial Arts for a few years, not just Karate. I'm now just coming back into it and planning to begin teaching a class or two after Christmas. I've spent the last few years exploring Tae Kwon Do, as well as several Chinese systems. All the time, I've always felt a close connection to the Karate I have practiced since I was 7 years old.

    I don't watch MMA or NHB fights, but I understand that "full contact" systems (such as Muay Thai or Brazilian JuJutsu) are "in fashion" now. Of course they are, they are comparitively easy to learn, a lot less poor quality schools for them, students can see improvement within weeks. Yet as someone else has previously said, that kind of training takes its tole on the body. However, the "non full contact" styles will always be around because they have a lot to offer to a wider audience.

    Having said that, if a school claims that it teaches "practical self defence" (no such thing IMO), then Kata should be a low priority as there are faster (note; I said faster, not better) ways to become a proficient Martial Artist.
    A traditional school, on the other hand, should have a more of a balance between Kata, Jiyuu Kumite, Sanbon Kumite etc. as all of these methods are traditional Karate.
    Both will continue to prosper, because there will always be a demand for a less competition focused alternative in Martial Arts.

    James :)
     
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Now there's a provocative statement. All the above represent Japanese Karate, not necessarily traditional karate and certainly not pre 1901 Karate.

    But then, tradition is what you make it. Anything done more than once is tradition.
     
  9. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    Folks - you're missing the point complaining about the basics of traditional karate.

    You are not supposed to immediately drop into horse stance and shout "kick me in the nuts, mofo!" the minute somebody raises their fists! it is an exercise, and may be suitable as a transitional stance. The same with forward stance and so-on; you may go into full zenkutsu-dachi whilst delivering a punch, but you're going to get back out of range asap once you've done it.

    Likewise, kata may be a stylised series of movements against an imaginary opponent, but it can also be viewed as a very long combination, with a selection of strikes, turns, blocks, etc. Also, kata well done is fantastic to look at!

    If it is just scrapping with no basics you're after, then that is another sport, like MMA/UFC/K9/whatever, but it ain't Karate.
    (And don't forget that "MMA" stands for Mixed Martial Arts, which clearly implies it is not a single one.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006
  10. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Yeah - proper karate :p :D
     
  11. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Perhaps I should have used the term "Karate-Do" :)

    James :)
     
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hmmm - can't wait until we meet up again my good man. :D

    So you are saying that what you are currently practising is proper, whereas what its founder practised was 'improper'? I'm genuinely curious. :Angel: Naurally all things change, but do you feel this change represents progress in the case of Shotokan?
     
  13. Hiroji

    Hiroji laugh often, love much

    My club was just like yours.

    I think one of the real decaying aspects of this type of karate is the competitions. I think point stop tag competitions has taken away what karate was all about, its become too much of a part of it. Thats the reason things are been left out and forgotten.

    Your views on it are totally the same as mine.
     
  14. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    It was just a joke. My logic was "I do it, so it's the proper way" - just like using a motorola telephone and a sony walkman is the "proper" method and those nokia or panasonic users are heretics.
     
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    The things is, you can say that with tongue in cheek and I know that you are joking. There are some people however who truly believe that their way is the right way and the only way. :bang:
     
  16. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    IMO, if their way works for them and they enjoy their training, then it is the "right way".
    Again, IMO a lot is open to interpretation when discussion turns to "the real deal" in Martial Arts.

    James :)
     
  17. rsobrien

    rsobrien Valued Member

    How is what I said ignorant at all? I trained in traditional Shorin Ryu karate for 7 years under Shihan Pat Canty. He was a seventh dan affiliated with Juku Kai and a 3rd dan in Aikido. I have been training Enshin karate and Judo for 4 months and will start training boxing. Its not like I walk around wearing TapOut shorts all day.

    Do you honestly believe a horse stance or chambered punches are effective? Do you think conditioning is important in making a martial artist? Do you think you could possibly take on one of those Kudo guys at their WARS tournaments or on the street?

    Listen, Mas Oyama traveled the world battling fighters even to Thailand, the Kodokan sent its best Judoka to take on catch wrestlers in Europe and the US, the peasants of Okinawa would kill Smaurai. There is no way these people could have accomplished this without hard, alive training which is what I am advocating. This is the direction karate should take, back towards learning how to effectively apply skills in a combat situation.
     
  18. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Please spare us the 'mythical tough guy attitude' back in 'the day' argument. As much as I respect Mas Oyama for being an impressive physical specimen back in his day and a good Karateka he also clearly embellished his exploits. Take a look on YouTube and you will see his famous footage of 'fighting' a bull. First of all that bull is an ox and it is merely trying to get away from this crazy dude who is grabbing his horns. I also read somewhere that him knocking off the horns with brutal knife hand strikes were staged (and considering that all you see in the footage is him nobly raising his knife hand and then video of horns falling on the ground it is pretty easy to believe).

    I have no problem training with other styles for mutual benefit. I enjoy crosstraining to 'round' myself out. I've met many guys from different styles who I have had good practice sessions with. Anyone who does sparring realizes you win some you lose some...even in the course of one training session you can have a good match against a guy and then get schooled the very next one against the same guy. This attitude of: "We need to get back to the day where we went around having challenge matches" is a bunch of BS. I don't know if those days ever even really existed.
     
  19. rsobrien

    rsobrien Valued Member

    Do you at least agree karate is a MARTIAL art and should be treated as such? What do you think the original purpose of karate was or even the making of a fist?

    Lets say Mas Oyama din't kill real bulls (which I agree it was exaggerrated), but can you deny that he would fight? Ask anyone who trained under him. He only died about ten years ago. I am not saying people need to go around dojo storming (although maybe they should) but that karate's original purpose was to inflict physical damage against another human being. I am saying that karate needs to modernize itself so that in can function in an alive situation. In order for that to happen, it needs to be trained in an alive manner.

    Would you say playing a video game racing simulator (the ones in the arcades where you sit down and move a wheel) prepares you for an actual driving situation? Would say Nascar drivers use these to practice for their races?

    This is not to say Nascar drivers go 100% at every practice either. That would be far too expensive as far as cars and tires go. But they still have to get in a car and drive
     
  20. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Was it? Possibly in it's basest form, but that's not the entire story. I would say if you are a follower of Funakoshi Gichin, you wouldn't have quite the same view.

    I'd post more, but I must leave the house now.
     

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