I've read Gandhi's two letters to Hitler to try and disuade him from his path. They didn't work. Neither did Neville Chamberlain's attempt at diplomacy. Hitler used to gleefully pretend he agreed with people, sign treaties promising friendship and then shrug, grin and invade the country he'd just signed the treaty with (no doubt thinking 'suckers!' as he did so). A peaceful approach should always be the first resort, but sadly with some people it isn't enough. Here are a couple of quotes from Gandhi I strongly disagree with :- Gandhi offered the following advice to the British people during WWII :- "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them." Gandhi on Hitler's treatment of Jews :- "The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs." The guy was just wrong sometimes.
<Taiji Butterfly>anyway what makes you tink you aren't a slave already...?</Taiji Butterfly> You know Taiji Butterfly it is a point I debate with myself constantly. The jury is still out. To directly answer your questions since you have graceously answered mine. Do you create the world? No. I didn't even create myself. I am a victim of cosmic probabilty. I am still even unsure of what I am. Even after 32 years of thinking on the topic. Guess once more round the wheel of life for me. Are you shaping your experiences or are they shaping you? Bit of both there. Some really bad stuff has happened and did a lot of "shaping". Do you like the world the way it is? I think we agree on that one. No. Are you prepared to accept stuff you object to (ie violence) ? Yes! There are many things object to. Organised Religon, BNP, Lawyers, hell even marmite. But I accept their right to exist. Unless the BNP get into government, I don't think I could live with that. <Taiji Butterfly>Nothing wrong with defending people imho - I objected to your instigation of violence against a possible or perceived threat earlier.</Taiji Butterfly> Whoa there, I never said I would instigate violence. I said the guy theatened to harm my son. He instigated the violence. If no threat had been made then no violence would have happened. I am responsible for my son's safety, if I wait for an actually strike to be aimed at my son, I might be too late, I might make a mistake. I am only a man, I don't have supernatural abilities like Richard Dunn (sorry moderator but he did actually claim this on this forum!). If he had merely threatened me that would be different I would wait for him to start to act but I wouldn't be so cavalier with my son's life.
Hi Cullion, I have never read these before. Powerful stuff. I think Ghandi's heart was in the right place and he was lucky. The imperialist power that invaded and at times brutally oppressed India had periodic bouts of conscience. The Nazi didn't have that and would have totally exterminated the jews and ghandi then went and had breakfast. I think is dangerous to appeal to an aggressor's better nature because they may not have one.
Great. It was all I asked. A fighter to me is only on a person who can fight should they choose to. Which you sound like to me.
I agree with you cullion - that is taking it too far. Somtimes expediency, sometime not.. that's how I see it. Somethings you let go others you stand up. The examples you cite here are definite cases of the latter. And there are others. Why just 'your lot' go to the wall as 'sacrifice' , lets take as many of them too while we're playing in a blood bath (they started it sir!).. While we're at giving up our posessions let's stop those greedy bastards raping there way to the loot and 'fight the good fight' .. - if there's one to be had. And there rarely is a 'good fight'. Not for the sake if it PB. Rebel without a clue comes to mind.
Cullion - not heard that before tbh It certainly sounds extreme. I'll have to research and think about that. I still think ahimsa is a worthy ideal, nonetheless and I still think non-violent resistance is the best way - but in extremis I would never rule out violence as an individual - but I take absolute and total responsibility for it if I use it. Re: pacifism. I started from there.... I used to take punches to the face and refuse to fight in the past and it did not usually escalate into a fight, unfortunately other people misinterpreted my actions and every ejit on the block started having a go - so I ended up fighting back violently. All this stopped when I started learning Taijiquan - something in me changed. Re: non-violence. Non-violence does not deny the existence and capacity for violence - it is a positive choice to actively promote peaceful ways and means. Naturally I would defend someone who needed defending or my own person in extremis (and I am quite capable of it, to answer the original point) :Angel:
what would we discover of wisdom if not for emotion. Wisdom tells us then to balance them.. and channel them best we can, even the dastardly ones. like ggrrrr.
<Taiji Butterfly>No offence but you seem to me to think and speak like someone who is enslaved...</Taiji Butterfly> None taken, I am able to take criticism. I think you may be right. I am bound by love of scotland to stay here when prospects would be better elsewhere. I am bound by love and duty to my family and friends which leaves me with very little time to do things for my own pleasure. I guess in some way I could be seen as a slave, I am definately not free. <Taiji Butterfly>So decide to view the world differently and contribute to it differently - crap will still happen, but you'll be amazed how much things can change. If you continue to deny your own power - you'll never have any. That's what I mean by you creating your world...</Taiji Butterfly> Oh I admit I have power to change some things (not the laws of physics), I just don't know whether I should try to change things. I mean, would my view of the world appeal to everyone. I cannot make a world for me alone. If try to change the world just to suit my view on it, would it not just make me another tyrannt and I cannot just live my life they way I please because it has impact on those around me. I think a person has to know and accept their limitations. <Taiji Butterfly>I'm a member of an 'organised religion' if you're looking for an excuse to hate me</Taiji Butterfly> Don't flatter yourself, It takes alot more than your words to make me hate. <Taiji Butterfly>that's your fear talking. Ok, so you step in front and warn off - but you didn't think of that - that's because the violence exists already in you. Why would anyone threaten your child anyway? Are you waiting for that at some level?</Taiji Butterfly> Your right. I do feel fear anyone who says they don't is either a liar or insane. Fear is natural and it is an important survival mechanism. Why shouldn't fear sometimes guide our actions. I am Human not a Vulcan. Why would someone threaten a child? Come live in some of the places I have. There been babies thrown from prams for the gold chain around their neck. A kid had a syring full of blood put to it neck for it's mother's purse. I am glad you have never experienced it and therefore find it difficult to understand but life for some of us isn't episode of the waltons. I am prepared for an event like this as a possibility, I hope it never happens but I cannot guarantee it. <Taiji Butterfly>Believe me, I really understand the emotion - but part of developing as humans is learning not to be ruled by emotions over wisdom surely?</Taiji Butterfly> No. I don't want to be totally governed by logic or wisdom. I am not Mr. Spock. Your emotions are a part of you. You should use your emotions to inform your wisdom. Why do I feel bad/good/love/hate/anger/happiness. It sounds to me you are unhappy with being human so you are trying to remove the parts of humanity you don't like.
I'm happily human in all respects which is why I don't behave like an animal in response to human problems... But basically you had me at 'Scotland' lol I understand the scenario you're describing better than you suspect - a tough challenge and one you have chosen at some level... but tough to change. It can be done tho. Anyway I think I've said all I want to for now and perhaps you can see if there are ways to 'think outside the box' you find yourself in... up to you. :Angel:
If you hand over the key, best be sure the recipient has the door. zks PB interesting maybe.. best for the philosophy forum though ..umm that's what it's there for! - and there was me taking a sabbatical from that shizzle. This is a philosophical MA theme in general, not just to batter your imagined 'peaceful' tai chi folks over the head with. tao is about naturaleness. It is natural for me to chase after you with a big stick if you run off with my ice cream! Let alone mess with me and my own.. ggrrr. yea, come on over anytime and umm cry on our shoulders :Angel: but look out for the needle in the cotton!
no not really, I think it's good to talk. Maybe you just misunderstand the general 'beliefs'. But then everone has there own. Just because a group shares a liking for 'zen' or 'tao' - they can still be v. diff people. My group chats a fair deal sometimes about philosophy being a zen group. Yea we are all quite diff - but share the common. Common sense |i think they call it. No, please don't go away - you're more than welcome. Don't mind silly me will ya.
"We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf." Winston Churchill. Having read through most of this thread, I have to say that I believe a balance is required. Peace obviously comes first, as the realities of conflict and war are terrible, and often catastrophic to both individuals, and nations. However, I also believe that it is a necessary evil at times to engage in conflict. The whole concept of "turn the other cheek" is utter carbage in my opinion. I have never turned my cheek to a violent person - for you only ask to be slapped again. Violence is a tool - like a hammer it can do harm if it is weilded badly. Or it can do good if it is used correctly. Personally I believe there are 3 types of people - Violent, Peaceful, and those who are capable of both. I fall into the last one, but I am closer to the first than to the second.
