the FMAs and Gun Training

The "badly edited tribute page" is, in my opinion, a very skilled and experienced PTK practitioner going through some techniques and applications at speed. He doesn't need to explain what he's doing for you to see what he's doing - it's there in front of you. If it's too fast for you, then just slow the footage down. From what i can see though, he is using techs that you've criticised, in contexts that you've criticised. I'd hazard a guess that he's at a much higher level than you in the system though - care to explain?

Tim Waid's video is a basic instructional vid, and he walks us through it step by step, tech by tech. In fact, it's very similar to how i teach my classes, and i use many of the same techniques, built on the same principals. I can almost guarantee that if you were to practice it repeatedly with a live blade though, at speed, from start to finish, you'd walk away with a fair few scratches (particularly if the attacker was allowed to re-angle their initial attack, or the blade during contact). It is also a lot easier to demonstrate something perfectly when it's broken down stage-by-stage too. Not to detract from anything he does, but just to make a point - whenever you go for the attacker's wrist, be it to grab, check, etc... you run the risk of having your arm/wrist/hand being cut. If the blade is moving at speed and is being wielded by an aggressive opponent, i'd say that this risk becomes pretty much a certainty. Whilst it's all good to spout rhetoric and say "respect the blade," you've also got to be aware that the blade doesn't respect you, the techniques you use, or what system you belong to. In the real world, self development and survival rely on you keeping your eyes and ears open. It won't be your system that saves you.

At the end of the day, IgitDako, i'd be happy to have either Tim Waid or Frans Stroeven on my side in a scrap, as they are both very handy individuals, and very good instructors, both delivering sound material. However, i could do without the input of a newbie who got his education from casting judgement from people's Youtube clips and watching movies. Get some skills first lad, then start dishing out the advice and criticism. Cos at the moment, it seems like you're the neighbour who just turned up to the barbeque with a tin of baked beans...

 

on Principle

Just wanted to clarify principal vs. principle. You mean this, correct?

The principles when dealing with a blade employed by the two are very different. As I've stated Franz's unnecessarily places the blade close to his skin, while Tim's avoid the blade consistently. I may be reading your two comments above wrong, but you cannot be for both being close and romantic with a blade and also try to avoid it.

I understand in real live scenario, it gets messy. But you train correctly to mitigate this reality.

 

Knife training is Not useless, bad knife training may be.

Polar Bear,

I thought we were "toning it down". What's with the lad reference? :bang:

I know and understand a one-on-one knife duel is unrealistic, I've already posted that youtube video of shankings in prison to make that point. Knife duels may happen, but for the most part they are marketing (tournaments) and merchandizing (trainers, shock blades) ploys. As simon mentioned, he credited the mediocrity of his "training" video because he was training for tournaments for points.

I don't believe this statement. If this was true, why do we train at all? If I went in with that mind set, I can understand why many seem to not take their knife training seriously. We train correctly for a life time, so that one split second will save others' or our lives. We train because we believe we will use it, not because it's "useless".

 

Thank you Martial novice for a very polite and professional post. I'm very passionate about my opinions, especially about blades.

I am not a McDojo owner, nor do I intend to be, nor am I in this to be part of a community. If what I say hurts others' ears, I'm only speaking the truth. I'm splamming mediocrity and supporting the efficacy of the read deal. If I am wrong in that, then crucify me.

Again thank you for that post.

 

Me too! But if I can only choose one, I'm with M. Tim Waid. Hands down.

 

good points to make

IgitDako, thanks for highlighting this unintentional and until now un-noticed pun in a blade thread. Very sharp!

 

Don't cut yourself up practicing techniques!

I totally understand that blades get messy, that's why we need to train correctly and take this stuff seriously.

But the point I wanted to make with Franz's was that he was only doing demos and he was already cutting himself up! :bang:

If you're cutting your own wrist and placing the blade near your face or body during a demo, what do you think will happen in reality?

 

I'm from Glasgow, it's how we speak here.

exactly.

[/QUOTE]
You should train with that mindset but it shouldn't carry into the rest of your life. If you live in such an insecure environment then carry a firearm. Where I live there is really little need to arm yourself. Firearms are illegal, knives are illegal and the police are never usually too far away.

The Bear.

 

Laddie and Lassies

Would you refer to Janno, simon or Pat O'Malley as lads?

It's pretty difficult to carry where I am. So the next best thing is carrying a knife, folder. That's why I train.

If you're going to train in blades, train in blades. Knives are illegal in the UK, but simon, Janno, Bakkan, etc. are still training in blades. I'm just suggesting they train better. I'm not familiar with UK politics are the Brits not allowing the Scots to carry blades?:Aegis:

I can't carry a gun, but I make it a point to learn and practice, in case I have to use it. "In case you have to use", is the reason we train correctly.

I'm glad you're in a happy and safe place, laddie, but some of us don't have that luxury.

 

IgitDako, you keep using these smilies:

:Aegis:

:saz:

Do you actually know what they're for/represent? I just find it weird that you are calling out the owners of the forum ???

 

Is there a rule for the use of Smilies?

In jest, not literal. These icons just seem cool. Didn't know they were the owners, kinda like Gods in this world, huh? (make your posts disappear). When you want to make a point or emote sarcasm, call Aegis or Saz. :bang:

 

You're welcome

I enjoyed this word. I believe it's new.

I'm in the UK and Bear is correct in stating that carrying those weapons is more trouble than it's worth. (Applies down here in the south as well as Scotland).
You may feel that carrying a folding blade is the best case for you. However here, if I were to do any damage with a blade I had been carrying - and chances are in the country with the highest CCTV per person ratio in the world that it would be quite obvious if I brought the blade - then I would probably be doing time.
The beauty of the FMA is the principles that transfer to my phone, keys, beer bottle in a bar as necessary. However, I am never training blade thinking about the knife I would pull in the street.

Just thought that was an important distinction to make. There have been a few threads recetly on gun crime and the views of US and UK Mappers clearly draw on the national cultures.

This point I do want to take issue with. I don't train anything that I think is useless. But I certainly do not believe that I will use it (outside of controlled training or competition). I sincerely hope I never have to.
I suspect your motive in writing this was that 'we train because we believe it will work', but the choice of words raised a big red flag.

MN

 

And i do train, diligently in fact, with some of the best in the business. Who do you train with?

Hey man - all i'm saying is that sometimes sh*t happens and we get a nick here and there. Once you bring an edged weapon into the equation, the amount of risk goes up considerably (as i'm sure you are aware). The question is though: What is at risk? What are the benefits of doing this? Frans took a nick on the boney part of his wrist, but kept the tricep checked, smacked the guy in the face (buying himself a window), and took control of the wrist. Like i said, it's not my chosen method for dealing with a knife attack, but if he's operating off sound mechanical and dynamic principles (sorry about the spelling earlier - in my work, "principal" features heavily), and he's able to pull it off without getting killed, then so be it. What's the worst-case scenario though? Maybe his slip is really bad and he loses the use of that hand. He still has control of that tricep though, and thus still has a window to work in.

Another point you failed to miss is that Waid's method also carries a high degree of risk when done at speed - particularly if you mess up the weapon strip. I don't like putting in the weapon strip early in the fight - yes, i understand that disarming one's opponent is advantageous, but having tried it (albeit very hesitantly and gingerly) with a live-blade in training, i'd say that my opponent would have to be in a state nearing comatose before i had the balls to do some of the "sexier" disarms in the FMA. That's just me though. Like i said earlier, when choosing one's methodology, one cannot completely eliminate risk - we can only make calculations based on:
1. What is likely to go wrong.
2. What will it cost me.
3. What contingencies will i have in place to deal with the consequences.

For the record though - i have trained with some very competent and reknowned instructors, and through exploring the failure points of various techniques and applications in my own time, there is a surprisingly large amount that i've chosen to leave behind. Not because it is ineffective, but because for me, other methods work more efficiently. For example, i trained edged weapons under an instructor who could snatch my thumb out of the air at will. Whatever i attempted, he was good enough to either lock my thumb up with his hand, lock it up with the back of the blade, or cut the thing off altogether. Half the time i attempted it though, i'd end up missing the thing, or cutting of a finger or two of my own in the process! Lots of training later, i'm still cack at picking up that thumb, but i was plenty good at other things. Thus the thumb locks don't feature much when i teach.

Ask your mate Leo!! (1:25-1:30)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2KGp5k2qS8&feature=related"]YouTube- Overview of Pekiti Tirsia Kali by Leo Gaje, Jr.[/ame]

Look lad, i'm not in this to defend people or undermine people - i'm just saying that all the combative applications of different systems are actually based on the same principles, regardless of whose style you think is better. Principles (to me, at least) are based on science - control points, body dynamics, anatomical stoppage, biomechanics, etc... etc... - things that apply right across the board, regardless of style or context. What you have described is behavioural preference - personal style if you will. There might be PTK or Sayoc guys out there who prefer to work from the inside, who like to keep the blade close to them, and who can produce devastatingly effective results doing it. Look at Gaje's clip above - brings the knife from low to high, just missing his own eyes, with only one hand controlling the knife hand (which, for a guy whose system emphasises destroying the eyes of their enemy, might be considered an unecessary risk!). Still decks the geezer though, doesn't he?

My question is though, who are you to decide what is or isn't effective for everyone else, when - from the sound of it - you haven't even trained enough to work out what is effective for you?

 

Still slamming mediocrity!

This is the difference between Pekiti Tirsia and the rest of the FMAs. Mental attitude. This is the type of mind set, I'm sure Franz has, and simon, AND the rest out there.

Impact weapons are for bones. Edge weapons are for flesh. They are two very different tools. Requires two different ways of training and mental attitude.

Same difference to me. I've been in a few situations with a blade. Based on past experience, I have no choice but to expect to face the same again. If I don't think like that, I'd be contributing to my own demise. Again, what sets Pekiti Tirsia from other non-blade FMAs, who now see the marketability and merchandizing affects of teaching the blade, who are now just recently dabbling in it is mental attitude. As shown in Franz's video and others, there is quite a big (life of death) difference that should now be apparent.

Do you train in Doce Pares or Modern Arnis?

Training blades and cutting yourself conducting a "knife" demo because one's principle or overall mindset to knife work is lacking should be a bigger red flag, my friend!

It's slamming mediocrity. It's a typo, my friend.

 

That's cool, esse. We went from 'packages' to 'principals' in my work also.

I don't understand, maybe it's just forum decorum. Maybe some sort of miscommunication here. But how can you, a professional, defend and justify something, which I kinda now feel we're in agreement with, and then at the same time say, "but I would never do it that way".

Kinda like saying "I don't agree with homosexuality, but hey, to each his own". I'm saying, forget about being nice. I'm saying, Franz's techniques suck and he shouldn't be posting such rubbish on youtube for kids to emulate.

Compared to Franz's techniques, I thought Tim's was rather dull. As it should be, knife work is very simple, stay away from the knife, period.

You can 'what if' the risks to death here, but compared to Franz's, Tim's is the safest, period.

Let me simplify this. If you had to train with M. Tim Waid or Franz, and you could choose only one and you had to choose one, which will it be?

Sorry, lad, my youtube seems to be down right now. But I'd appreciate it if you called him GT Gaje, he's earned that respect. I gave props to Mr. Pat O'Malley did I not?

 

Don't get 'cut up' about it Martial Novice.

 

Very quickly before I run ou the door to work so sorry to have to keep this brief.

First, I don't think it's a style thing, it's an environment thing. I train Bakbakan Ilustrisimo. Quite a few people train our style knowing that they will always have a blade with them. In my city, it is only those on the worst council estates who will be ALWAYS be carrying. So I train hard, but rarely thinking 'ok first I'll pull my knife...'. This applies to several MAs.

Second, impact and edge weapons are different, but the body mechanics of power generation etc. do not change. And in our classes certainly we work both - disarms for both, targets for both etc etc.

I train to fight should I ever need it, but most likely should I be atacked, it will be the fact that MA has kept me fit and enables me to run that will best protect me. And for self protection/defence where I am, I'm much better off learning a few psychological tricks to de-escalate tension or placate a mugger.

Hope to have more time to write soon
MN

 

Hierarchy of Defense

But only one style elevates the blade to the level of fanaticism. As I've argued before, when dealing with the blade a certain level of fanaticism is necessary. Call it fanaticism, call it mental attitude, call it the warrior spirit, but only one group has it and it is no accident that their blade work is on a completely different level.

Of course your environment plays a great role, if you live in safe and happy Glasgow, then reading posts about the blade and the importance of correct training with the blade will just fly over your head.

What if you can't placate that mugger?

But I agree, the Jedi mind trick is a skill that should be taught in McDojos, backyards, and even in youtube. I only know of three types of people who become masters at this skill, bouncers, prison guards and police officers (I guess you can add in con-artists here as well). It should be taught widely and practiced to mastery.

Here's a great diagram of this:
Hierarchy of Defense

(keep in mind though that that diagram is for civilians, there are people who need to cultivate an 'offensive' mentality.)

 

Glasgow is the knife crime capital of the western world, even at that, the chance of a one-on-one knife fight is remote. The chance of even seeing your attacker before the first cut is remote. All your realistic training stuff is a heap of crap. I nearly lost my eye from a knife attack. I got no warning and only my reaction speed saved my eye. The difference between you and me is I've done it for real and you talk about reality. I grew up in some of the worst neighbourhoods in the UK and seen stuff people wouldn't believe. I live in safety now because, I now live in not bad an area, I stay aware of my environment and I don't go around causing trouble.

The Bear.

 

I think that those who have had to face a knife tend not to talk about it so much because they realised just how crazy it was and that BASIC survival instinct was more effective than ANY technical training.

Get the hell of line and get it over as quickly and ruthlessly as possible.Control the knife? While he is kicking or punching the crap out of you with his other natural weapons???