the FMAs and Gun Training

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by IgitDako, Jul 3, 2010.

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  1. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    EEjit says it all

    Smurf
     
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Sigh, your point of live knife in alive conditions was incorrect, so now to save what seems to be a rampant ego, you construct a strawman. Yes, Sayoc kali is sold as all blade etc etc so how do you view the rest of the Sayoc system, you are aware they train stick too arnt you?
     
  3. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Ok, point taken. So they're not ALL Blade ALL the Time? And "the Art of the Blade", should also have an addendum, "the Art of the Blade and Stick, but mostly Blunt trainers and Stick".

    Marketing slogans are tricky. But with these slogans, usually comes pretty good merchandizing, ie the trainers, etc. I think that's where we are going with this re: Blade training.
     
  4. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    There's really nothing to analyze, Jan. The Modern Arnis or Doce Pares (I can't tell from their uniforms, they look so much alike) kids were playing patty cake.



    There's nothing sophisticated with it, if you can't use it fully and properly, Jan. If you studied Pekiti Tirsia or other real blade arts, you won't have to 'explore your limitations', you'd be able to look or do and tell that that knife or shank will end up in your abdomen area. Practice it at full speed and full power, you'll understand what I'm saying.



    I'm a beginner student in Pekiti Tirsia Kali, I've stated this again and again (and no I'm not going to give you guys my address and where we train). But I've been around the block and then some in my younger years. For a fresh Pekiti Tirsia student to be able to rip your world apart and call out everyone's flaw, is very telling of the quality of training by the lesser FMAs represented on here.
     
  5. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    Wow, now there's a cop-out if i ever heard one. C'mon dig deep - i'm sure you'll be able to find the answers in that great big Youtube library in your head. Failing that, just play one vid, followed by the second vid, and then play spot the difference. By the way, Frans Stroeven is one of the top guys for Cacoy Doce Pares in Europe, and is far from a "kid." Maybe you should go see him and show him how little you think of his abilities - unless you're too busy cowering under the bed of course...



    Every training aid has limitations: That's why they're called training aids and not knives. The Shock-knife is a handy piece of kit, and the pain-response it gives is good for sharpening reflexes and reminding the recipient of their vulnerability (something i find is lost with trainers and markers). As for your claim that one doesn't need to explore their limitations if they do PTK or other real blade arts: I've never heard something so laughable from a supposed martial practitioner. To test one's knowledge to failure is the driving force behind self-development. Anyone who thinks that just by blindly studying system X and going through the motions, they will be able to reach the pinnacle of ability and understanding of any type of combat, is a fantasist and a liar.


    Been around the block and then some? Yeah - those days before Youtube must've been pretty harsh on your education. Watching a few vids, playing know-it-all on internet forums, and meeting up in a parking lot to play "let's draw on each other" with pencils does not make you a student in PTK. You are quick to call BS on an entire system because of a 3 minute clip you saw on Youtube, and yet, when you see the same techniques and behaviours being used in your beloved "real blade arts," you don't know quite how to take it. You are clearly too scared to name your instructor or where you train - why? Because they might be embarrassed at your behaviour here? Because someone might show up and call you out? I find it difficult to believe that such a coward as you would have the guts to even leave the house, let alone pursue a hobby that would require a degree of physical contact. The fact that you even try to associate yourself with such a reknowned and formidable system is a joke and an insult to them.
     
  6. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Please study the Pekiti-Tirsia Kali videos closely

    I think we may be speaking about two different clips. I see two kids playing patty cake. This isn't the great Frans Stroeven, is it?


    I didn't say "one doesn't need to explore their limitations", I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I said that we don't need to repeat these mistakes, because as blade people, those techniques have already been tested and deemed impractical and nonviable in real world scenarios with a knife.



    Not everyone can afford fancy shock blades and fancy no lie blades, not everyone can buy Sayoc trainers for 50 to 100 bucks a piece. So in the school of hard knocks, where kids don't have money to spare for lessons at their local McDojos where they rip you off, they improvise. Fat artist pencils and Sharpee markers work better than fancy expensive shock knives and fancy expensive Sayoc trainers. The fact that you can't wrap your head around this simple concept, says quite a lot about your training and teaching methods.

    Same techniques? What are you smoking, man? Looking at those videos with M. Tim Waid and M. Jared Wihongi it should be apparent to anyone with at the very least 1 yr experience in Pekiti Tirsia that the techniques and movements are like apples and oranges.

    We in the martial arts world have been conditioned to be humble to the point of detriment. When we see mediocrity with those who are suppose to be masters in these arts, we're suppose to say, 'way to go discovering your limitations' and 'nice video! thanks for sharing'. My instructors are humble, but in private they are also very critical. I'm sharing their critiques in the hope that others can learn from it. Because you will never hear of these critiques and thus never benefit from it. So be thankful that I'm sharing them and understand why I choose anonymity. They are good constructive criticism, please develop a thicker skin and use these critiques. Please.
     
  7. Dizzyj

    Dizzyj Valued Member

    So what you are saying is, you are taking private opinions that were given to you in confidence and loudly exclaiming them to the world outside of the original context; then when challenged hiding behind the names of those who gave their opinions to you?

    I can see why you'd choose to be anonamous, because this sure isn't the way to curry favor with those you quote; I'm guessing. This is upon the assumption that it even was from them, and that you are not simply making this up to inflate your ego.

    Dizzy.
     
  8. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    Ah - my bad - please see the first link (which links to Frans Stroeven's clip, which will, according to IgitDako "will get you killed).

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94453&page=10

    (post #141)


    And now compare that with this:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7u2p-okOfo&NR=1"]YouTube- Pekiti Tirsia kali -Dance of the Blade 2[/ame]


    My mistake - of the two Youtube vids you linked to, the Franz Stroeven one was at the top, not the bottom, and so i misquoted the link. My request still stands though - please explain the fundamental differences between what is displayed in Stroeven's Doce Pares clip, and what is displayed in the PTK clip (regarding the edged weapon stuff).

    A good critique will specify the flaws in the material, as well as propose a viable solution. So far, all i can see from you is a big chip on your shoulder as you keep stating that people here are bitching about PTK in private (which, by your own admission is something your own instructors are doing themselves, about other systems), and some over-generalised statements. One only has to look at the BS you've been spouting about the UK, Europe, FMA, and the history of the world in general to see what you're all about.

    You are assuming a lot about people you've never met, places you've never been, and systems you've never trained in. Regardless of what you say your instructors say: If this is the attitude you're adopting in martial arts, then there's only one person in this discussion who's going to get themselves seriously harmed, and that's you matey. Newsflash for you - in real life (y'know - that thing that happens when you log off), you can't talk sh*t to people and hope that your keyboard saves you. Who knows, if it wasn't for the anonymity that the internet offers, maybe people like you would grow a spine and actually hold themselves accountable for their own words. Perhaps one day you might learn about a little thing called "integrity" too. Until then, you'll be just like every other internet-hero out there, happy to talk smack, but too scared to even say their own name. Pathetic.
     
  9. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Franz Stroeven's video, dissected

    It's cool, esse. The Franz Stroeven is actually pretty high grade, I thought I posted another video. But comparing this to a "tribute" video wouldn't be fair, so I chose this M. Tim Waid [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4bPAvmjmhg"]video[/ame] and an old school GT Gaje [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufs54rWs670"]video[/ame] (there's better GT Gaje knife work videos but I can't seem to find them on youtube).

    Like I said, Franz's video is actually high grade for Doce Pares. And he's athletic, not like most FMA "masters" out there who are really sadly overweight (but that's a different topic, do you think I can start a thread titled, "Why are most FMA masters Fat?", it may come off as rude, but it's true).

    Franz's video: At 0:25, that knife is right in front of Franz's face. At 0:37 on, he's busy doing his punching fu man chu BS, while that knife is just hanging out there, no control. At 0:40, that knife is actually touching his wrist. Again at 1:00 on, busy doing fancy moves, knife is left there to hang all alone. At 1:19, that knife is on his wrist again. I'll stop there, you get the point.

    Compare that to Tim Waid's video, complete and consistent control of the blade, because that blade is going to cut you. I'm surprise, a new Pekiti Tirsia student had to walk you through all this and explain it to you like a child.



    Constructive criticism is always good, as long as the critiquee has thick skin. As for the history of the world snipe, why do you think the moderators actually deleted my rebuttal post to Polar Bear's little high school version of modern war history. Ideas are dangerous, my friend. This is the reason why they practice censorship in the Mid East and China, because ideas when the established order is out of gas, unable to further argue their case, they resort to censorship.



    When you ASSUME, you make an ass out of u and me. Isn't the pot calling the kettle black, here? I've noticed you're the only one being rude here. I've been civil. It's not me that you find offensive and hurtful, it's my ideas, it's the truth. So check yourself, before you wreck yourself.
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    No, you have not, you have been extremely rude and disrespectful to arts, cultures and nations you have very little or no experience of. I strongly suggest you end this behaviour now.

    The Bear.
     
  11. kilat02

    kilat02 Valued Member

    *sigh* at every thread this guy showes up (IgitDako), turns into a posting war and derailed the whole thread.
    like a nice calm kickboxing match that turns into a "slugfest".:topic:

    just saying.
     
  12. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    Not unlike ptkalista. Just saying.
     
  13. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    You did indeed explain it like a child. Well done - that's a step up for you. Seeing as you actually took the time to provide some analysis, it looks like we now have the beginnings of a constructive discussion (despite you discarding the PTK video in favour of something more convenient). Thing is, knife work is very personal - i don't believe that there is a be-all and end-all methodology to dealing with it - i believe that principals must be worked from instead.

    At the points where you claim Frans has no control, you'd be wrong - he actually has consistent control of the tricep: Itself a very important control point, particularly when working from the outside. All the "fancy moves" are there to buy him time to track onto the wrist. If he was to go straight for the wrist, then it would turn into a game of "grab-ass" (one of your favourite terms, yes?). And unless it miraculously ends up in his hand through chance, he will have to start at a joint closer to the body (one that moves slowly) and work from there. By Frans taking control of the tricep, the opponent has only one viable option if he wishes to continue his attack, and that is to retract his arm across his body to roll into something else (alternatively, he can use footwork to disengage and go at it again). However, because of the time needed to perform this maneouvre, Frans, who is already moving around the outside, will now have the opportunity to press the attack, possibly taking the head. Thus by moving to the outside, and keeping the tricep controlled, he buys himself a window to perform further techniques. Simple time-frame theory there. Means bugger-all if you're not willing to put it to the test though.

    At the end of the day, if your methodology differs, then so be it - mine does too. But your analysis will continue to be shallow and child-like so long as you do not have the actual field experience to see what principals are at work in front of you.

    By the way, you still have yet to compare Stroeven's vid with this PTK vid, as originally requested.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7u2p-okOfo&NR=1"]YouTube- Pekiti Tirsia kali -Dance of the Blade 2[/ame]

    I'd be interested to hear why the latter is superior (if indeed it is). Here's a tip: Pay particularly close attention to the techniques being used (as there is an awful lot of stuff in there that you've poo-poo'd in previous posts). And pay attention to the self-preservation skills of the attacker :D Would i still learn from this man? Of course i would! His skills are excellent. The debate though, is whether or not his technical demonstration is subject to the criticisms that you've made of other systems and practitioners.

    Just for the record though, you'll see a lot of technical crossover between different systems (in Frans' vid around the 6 min mark you'll see counters that are used in Sayoc Kali as well), as there are only so many ways the body can bend and break.


    Especially when they are being presented by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.


    Actually, your "ideas" don't offend me so much as your ignorant attitude. You don't know what i do well enough to have any authority on it, let alone offend me with baseless and generalised criticism. The same goes for your opinions of other FMAs, and the "advice" you are preaching - it is presented in such a clumsy, shallow, and desperate way that i'd be stunned if anyone took you seriously. The "truth," as you put it, is that you are spouting nonsense - nonsense that you are unwilling and unable to either convey coherently or (most importantly) back up with experience or actual ability. This is what offends me - the fact that, with your writing skills, you could have gone away, learnt your craft properly, and come back with some valuable input. Instead, you've chosen to crown yourself an authority, armed with a few Youtube clips, some Hollywood references, and a few quotes taken from internet forums.

    When you choose to arm yourself only with knowledge that can be achieved from sitting on your **** at home, do not be surprised when you get stomped all over by people who achieved their knowledge by actually going out there and doing it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2010
  14. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Watch the Tim Waid video and study it please. Respect the blade, control the blade. Notice how you avoided all the times Franz cuts his own wrist, and the times it's unnecessarily close to him. Rationalizing bad techniques will get you killed. Lack of control and clumsy "disarms" comes from not having understood the wider concept of the blade--simply, you should keep away from it.
     
  15. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    It's a badly edited "tribute" page, he's not explaining his techniques as Franz and Tim are. So it would be hard to compare. But notice the difference between Tim's and Franz's strategies, life and death.
     
  16. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    It's funny how you had to point out that it's me. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Lad, honestly, the chances of getting into a one-on-one straight up knife fight is almost zero. In a live blade situation 90% of everything you train is virtually useless. Like you say you are a beginner, some of us here have faced knives for real. Now the dedicated mindset you have is great but direct it into your training and not out at everyone else's failings.
    Here's how you can do that. Post a vid you like, then point out what are the points that you think are important. This will allow others to analyse your principles and confirm or correct any mistakes you might be making. You current approach is practically worthless to both you and the community here.

    The Bear.
     
  18. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Nicely articulated Polar Bear!
     
  19. Martial novice

    Martial novice Valued Member

    IgitDako,

    It is quite possible that you are not a troll and have good intentions to raise standards across the FMA Board. However, your comments on several threads have not been well received. You may believe so fervently in the need for FMAs to maintain high standards that you see anyone countering your posts as wishing either to let bad practice slide, or people simply being defensive.

    I have been on MAP for a couple of years, avidly lurking for the most part and I can assure you that the vast majority of those posting are reasonable and dedicated people and the couple that I've met are excellent at FMA.


    What I want to clarify is the way several of your posts have come across.

    Regarding the PTK challenge it went something like:
    IgitDako: Why does nobody take the PTK challenge?
    Various Mappers: There is no need
    ID: Then you must all be scared
    VM: No, we attend events where there are challenges
    ID: So why don't you travel to PI to prove yourself as good as PTK guys?
    VM: Because 1 that's a fairly expensive trip and 2 why can't they attend other challenges?
    ID: But nobody trains like PTK - they're the best.
    VM: Ok, if PTK guys are the best, why don't YOU come to an event?
    ID: This isn't about ME, it's about all the fakes.
    VM: Ok, so why don't you visit the fakes?
    ID: Because I'm a beginner
    VM: So how do you know who is peddling rubbish?
    IM: Because if it wasn't rubbish why wouldn't they travel to the PTK challenge?
    VM: There is no need

    Cycle round that a few times with a few embelishments (Someone turned up but the challenge could not happen, some insults about the state of FMA outside the PI etc.) and you have the whole thread.

    Then there was a slightly Gaje hero-worshippy type thread on 'Can you BELIEVE someone put up this 'interview'???'
    Answer: I am no longer surprised by the principle of anything being on the internet these days. (Though some things still make my eyes hurt). Someone put it there. It wasn't this forum. Try to live with it. Top instructors don't really need people to protect them from something a bit insulting whether true, false or faked.


    And then this thread that started with what seemed an innocent question - why do you train the weapon choice you do? e.g. why not think blade? - though as soon as someone asks if there are any FMA that don't think blade, you assert that 3 styles you have apparently never trained in apply only to the stick.
    This then degenerated into FMA needing live blades, though you dismissed the shock knife (I'd love to try one but not allowed in the UK). You're right it's not perfect because you can't perform explosive disarms, but the psychology of pain involved is a good half-way point to live (sharp) blades.

    Try the following clip to see what I mean.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw4ft1L5a3U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw4ft1L5a3U[/ame]

    You then say it takes a beginner PTK student to point out all the flaws of every other system. Maybe you are just looking at different training and seeing mistakes because it is not the way your style does it. Or perhaps you've only seen a part of something out of context. I suggest that unless you personally have defeated the guy (whatever style), then I don't think you can write them off. This will apply to even more people when you are a beginner.


    I'm looking only at the FMA related stuff here and not dignifying the 'History' topics that were moved to 'Off-Topic' with a response.

    So to conclude what has ended up an overly preachy, but hopefully useful post: You may have good points to make, but if you're putting everyone on the back foot, nobody will listen. Please try to avoid sweeping statements like 'most FMA instructors are fat' (did I miss the survey?) or FMA in Europe aren't much cop. Try to avoid comparing all practitioners of one style with those of another (especially one you train/have trained vs one you never have). You seemed confused by suggestions you were advertising - to clarify, this is the style and GM rather than a club necessarily, maybe better described as simultaneously promoting one and trashing others.

    And finally, please stop worrying about us all getting killed quite so much. Statistically the quality of my training (as compared with taking any other exercise) will have a negligible effect on my demise. Some of these threads on the other hand....






    Mods - sorry for bringing up stuff from a closed thread. Just hoping to foster better communication in future threads. Feel free to delete as necessary.
     
  20. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    I can't justify someone cutting their wrist in the middle of a fight, or when doing a technical demonstration at speed - it is unintentional, after all (i hope). However, i have certainly seen people have their arm/wrist cut open during technical demonstrations with live blades, as well as free-flow drills. I myself have had my wrist cut by a knife in an incident that happened about 10 years ago (on the bone, thankfully, and not very deep). When things are done at full speed, sh*t happens. In all of the above cases though, it wasn't life-threatening, and we were able to continue doing what we were doing.

    As for the blade being "unnecessarily close to him" - provided he is in control of the situation, and there isn't the chance that something will slip and he'll suffer a wound that either cripples or kills him, i see no problem. When it comes to style, everything works in theory. If Frans' style works in application, then fair play to him. At the end of the day, there are only two outcomes that you need to be concerned with - life or death. Personally, my approach is different to Frans', but contains similar mechanical principals. Like i said earlier though - bladework is a very personal thing, and i believe that techniques that work for one person won't necessarily work for another. That's why it's important for us to filter out the principals (ie. things that are constant across all applications), and work off them, rather than technical templates. The problem is that you sometimes need technical templates to expose the principals at work, and that's when people become distracted by nitpicking technique, as opposed to seeing what principals are being used.
     
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