the eye gouge

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by mai tai, Dec 25, 2005.

  1. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Sounds like my training. Only 3 forms of which you learn over 5 or so years, realistic techniques, each person utilising the system to themselves.....

    As i said on another thread, self defence base training and sport based training have different intentions and focuses, so how on earth can you based the effectivness of all training on MMA/sport.

    As for being a nutriders, i have never said MMA was useless :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2006
  2. Topher

    Topher allo!

    We hit hard except for direct face shots or throat strikes.

    Other classes (which i'm going to start going to soon) pad up and include more brawling/sparring type training. Other classes incorperate some BJJ into the training. Some classes are basically just all Chi Sao, which itself is full contact (and sometimes grappling).
     
  3. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Oh, I study a traditional art, never said I didn't. But unlike you, I'm not afraid to admit that some of the stuff "TMAers" are being sold is crap. Eye gouges, neck breaks, deadly pressure points, and no sparring... that doesn't prepare you to fight by any stretch of the imagination.

    If selling out means learning how to fight both stand up and on the ground, the application of practical techniques which can be used outside of a game of dungeons and dragons, can actually be practiced against a real live opponent, and have some overall merit makes me a "sell out", then fine. I proudly wear the label, because it means my training is well-rounded and realistic.

    I'll also add this... If you knew anything about Chin Na, Bagua, Shui Jiao, Mongolian Grappling, Praying Mantis, and the 5 Animal Fists, you wouldn't be calling me a sellout lol. Very traditional. And in the case of one or two, not found too much outside of China or Hong Kong. We just train it realistically. But you don't know enough about the stuff we do except to make fun of it, so I'm hardly surprised you would say what you do about the way we train.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  4. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Guess your British criminals are pansies. :D

    You miss the point entirely. Just because you train in a ring, on a mat with tape, or in a cage doesn't mean your understanding of spacial awareness magically goes "poof" when you leave the school. If you think that's the case, you've just insulted half this forum and shown just how ignorant you are about real live training.

    LOL. I'll say the same thing to you I said to the resident cynic. I do a combo of Bagua, Chin Na, Shuai Jiao, Mongolian Grappling, 5 Animal Fists, and Praying Mantis. If sparring and training realistically means we're sport-based, so be it. I'd rather be called sport-based and well-rounded than buy into some of the crap I've seen in this and other threads over the last few weeks.

    And we hear "t3h str33t" so much because it's the last refuge of MAers who need to perpetuate some sad myth about what "the real world" is like because they're on the losing end of an argument about realistic training methodologies :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  5. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Nice try, but I want you to point out exactly where I advocated neck breaks, deadly pressure points etc. I've argued that the policy of introducing sparring much later in training is sound, I've never argued completely against sparring. It has it's place. I just think the "nothing works unless it can be trained fully alive" and "all training must be full contact" concepts nonsense. I have learned a lot about my martial art from really "dead" activities like forms and static drills.

    No, these things aren't selling out, but only publically advocating for the parts of your training that fit in with the MMA gospel, is.

    You may well do, I don't know I've never visited your school, and apart from the website (which does the school no favours) so I shouldn't comment. I don't doubt that it's more traditional, I can see that just from the fact that you wear costumes while we just train in regular training gear.
    But when you attack my school rather than me, it irks me a little, and changes the rules. I don't want my school or my sifu to be mentioned anywhere near any of these threads, my guess is that you feel the same. So back off and we'll both be happy.
     
  6. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I agree :eek: there is probably more rubbish in the TMA world, but thats just because of the popularity of it. Not all TMA based styles are rubbish, otherwise you wouldn't be training one! ;)

    On that note, do you have and video of BKKF as i've never seen it before.
     
  7. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    I think that training is completely worthless. Sorry, but I don't buy into this whole idea that training your techniques in a manner which encourages not trainig them to competion is worthless. As far as I'm concerned, if it can't be trainined fully alive, how are you going to make it work when the chips are down? Dead drills serve a purpose, but if it's all you do, then I'm not sold.


    Maybe because they have it right where too many TMAers seem to think that dead drills are perfectly fine and realistic. They aren't. If you haven't pressure tested your techniques in the kwoon, how the hell are you so sure they'll work in the real world? Please, explain to me how Joe Average off the street can claim he can defend himself when he's rarely even taken a hard punch in a controlled environment. What makes you think he's gonna be able to take a punch from the jerk in the bar who decides to slug him? That certainly is the *wrong* time to learn what you're made of.



    Hey, I already said that website sucked and I bear no responsibilty for it before. But damned if I'll let anyone insult it, because that's insulting my instructors who I respect a great deal (I truthfully don't care what you think of GM Parker. Never met him, never plan to).

    My beef with you is that you seem to have this idea that you don't have to answer any questions when people put them to you. Whether you think GM Parker's website is good or not, you really shouldn't be so fast to cast aspersions on it when you won't tell us much about your school.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  8. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Never said they were rubbish. I just hate this paradigm that exists in both camps. I've already said it, so no need to repeat it time and time again. But you get the idea of how I feel.

    No vids, sorry. Maybe in the future. Sifu has taken pics and is working on a webpage, but nothing concrete yet. When and if we have them, I'll post them ONLY if they are of me. I will not involve my classmates on an internet forum they have no desire to be a part of.
     
  9. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    I'm starting to wonder about the connection between repeated skull trauma and attention span.

    Nobody has said that a MMAer will not be able to transfer their skills to the street (I refuse to write str33t anymore). In fact if I could be bothered I could go back and find the post where I said the skills were transferable.

    So, settle down, and try to focus until you get to the end of the next paragraph, here goes:

    MMA trains people to fight in a very specific scenario and is therefore a style that is optimised for that scenario. The drawback to this is that the techniques are limited by a rule set. Traditional martial arts are not limited in that way, and in my opinion a better option for someone studying self defence for just that reason.

    If you're still able to concentrate heres a couple more paragraphs to expand on that.

    Training MMA a couple of times a week is not going to make you like a professional UFC fighter, you will as far removed from that level as anyone at your local "Tai chi for the over 80s" club is.

    People mostly want to learn martial arts with the hope of learning to defend themselves. This involves a much broader range of potential scenarios and no rule book. TMAs tend to deal with this much broader range of scenarios.

    Fighting outside a ring is very different to fighting in a ring. Despite the fact that in your neck of the woods everybody fights by the queensbury rules where I come from they don't. I have never seen a straightforward fight between two people, there's always some pratt on the sidelines who likes to jump in and help his mate (when it's clear that his mate is winning), on top of that as Homer pointed out the vast majority of violent crime tends to be done by people working in pairs or gangs.
     
  10. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Reread Homer's post. He was arguing that the situational awareness of a fighter is apparently different than the situational awareness of a TMAer. He said it, not me:

    and

    Last time I checked, both TMAers and MMAers get grabbed and tossed up against walls. Neither of us do perfect matches to what you may encounter in "real life", but that doesn't mean one is worse than the other. I'm just more annoyed with the TMA crowd because some of them have said some genuinely stupid things that I, as a TMAer, can't even remotely accept. I'l admit you're getting the brunt of it since we are on opposite sides of the fence right now.

    EDIT:

    I also want to say: I will just as quickly smack down the nutrider who comes in here and thinks that a week of MMA classes will make him the Next Ultimate Fighter just as quickly as I'll smack down the nutrider who thinks a few Kung Fu classes makes him the next Bruce Lee!
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  11. Topher

    Topher allo!

    How much multiple attacker sparring is in MMA/sport training. So you do any? Please enlighten me - when rolling with someone or in the ring, where is the situational awareness. The bigger issue is the length of sparring and such concentration placed to a specific bout and opponent. It wouldn’t be so bad if it was mixed with other methods, but there is no other methods.

    Even when I’m against one person, I aim and focus to defend against an attack, and then dominate the person with my own, removing their ability to attack back – which on the street would be because they would be injured or I’m half away down the street.

    Sparring and realism isn’t automatically sport based it’s simply good training which some MMAers need to understand.

    Why is sport based training the indication of good self defence training when the only evidence that it works is in competitions, which funny enough, is exactly what it is trained for. Weird. The point is it’s the focus and intention put into training, not necessarily what your training that manners. Almost all self defence (what ever the training) won’t be on camera, it would be oral accounts, which is why people who train for self defence proposes only have this as evidence. I’ve heard more self defence training working than sport training.

    What evidence is that sport based training is more effective that self defence based training? Competitions are not evidence of self defence btw.

    Well I can gladly say that I train in is realistic, and has been used effectively many times.

    All I hear MMAers whine about is how rubbish and ineffective anything else is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  12. Topher

    Topher allo!

    So unless you train for competitons, your training or worthless :rolleyes:
     
  13. Topher

    Topher allo!

    What about other BK schools?
     
  14. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    OK, tell me how often you do a mass attack or multiple opponent situation? Once a week? Once a month? And how often do you think most TMA schools train that? I've seen it in one school, and I've been exposed to or studied 6 styles. Including one of yours. And I never saw any of them do multiple opponents until I hit the one I'm at now. So it's kinda disingenous to say that MMA doesn't prepare to defend against multiple attackers and TMA does when, at least here in the states, multiple attackers isn't even a consideration in many, if not most, MA schools!

    MMA and TMA methodology.


    I'll agree with you there, but I'll respond more to the next section.

    There are several aspects they deal with that too many TMAs don't:
    -they can take a punch, and they can take them hard. Let's face it, too many TMAers could never withstand a solid punch from one of these sport guys.
    -overall, they are in much better shape physically than TMAers. Too many TMAers are hobbyists, and most of them would gas after doing one too many windsprints around the kwoon. We really need to do more conditioning.
    -a punch is a punch is a punch. and those guys can throw punches. they train in a different way than we do, and it certainly helps them with reflexes and the ability to absorb damage. again, drawing from my experience, much different than most TMA schools.
    -while I understand that many TMAers are hobbyists, many of those hobbyists are prone to thinking they can kick ass when the fact of the matter is that some of the loudest are also some of the most out-of-shape. certainly you would agree that will have an impact on them if they get mugged?
    -oh, and at least MMA comps are full-contact and not this love-tap crap which is way too popular. Sorry, but the last tang soo do tourney I went to (world tang soo do association run, just so you know), i saw a guy repeatedly get docked points for actually making contact. it cost him the grand championship because his opponent was a whiny old man. sorry, but if you enter a tourney and sign up to fight, don't whine when you get hit. and if those are the caliber of fighters TMAs are producing, do you really wonder why people say that many of them have far too unrealistic assessments of their own abilities?
     
  15. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I think my training cover more potential situations that i may encounter than a sport gym.

    Not once have i ever been involve in a situation thereby there wasn't threats and/or an arm/jacket grab before anything happened. Good training should include this pre-engagement range as what happens here probably dictates what happens next.
     
  16. mai tai

    mai tai Valued Member

    i wouldnt really call slip a keyboard warrrior...

    unlike alot of people on internet forms...he actually fights.....while i dont know who he is he posted pictures of himself fighting....on the T.V.

    now while alot of cans fight on the T.V. ...i know that I have fought pro quite a few times...and im not good enough to be on the T.V.

    while he could be full of it and have posted a picture of someone else i doubt it....since his knowlege of MT is very high on the techniqual aspects and he seems to know the dirt of the fight game......

    I DO question his claim to be gainfully employed :)

    as far as the child goes i dont remeber him ever claiming to be a great martial artist.....and im retty sure hes a lawyer..(knowlege level very high)

    that or he watches alot of court TV
     
  17. Topher

    Topher allo!

    We train multiple attackers usually in certain phases, when were no working on other drills. Sometimes it could be weekly, and then we focus on other elements. As we progress multiple attacker training and such become a lot more regular.

    But that said, i agree, most TMAs (Karate, TKD etc) train very unrealistic and it pretty much useless for self defence in most cases, but my training methodology reflects street level defence. It’s one of the reason why I cont like the TMA label because of the attitude towards it.

    I’ve never had the opinion that MMA’s are completely ineffective as some here have. Some elements such as all out brawling (w/ standing and grappling) are generally better trained in MMA than many other styles and I will almost certainly train in MMA/grappling at some point and utilise what I feel best for my aims. My issue is that just like any style, it needs to be trained the way it is intended to be used. MMA being mainly sport orientated lack many training drills/methodology/approaches that are important when considering self defence. That’s not to say MMA doesn’t have other useful points. I strongly believe that if you want self defence, go to a place that trains well, but has it as its focus. However, because of this you cannot use MMA/sport training as the indication for how well self defence based systems train because of these differences.



    1. Not true for my training. We it hard unless it to the face (we don’t use adding) or throat (we don’t want to kill anyone in training.) Classes that include padding it hard to the face.

    2. True if you include the professions MMAers. And I bet there are tons of hobbyist MMAers, but generally we could assume it includes more fitness. That said, in my training we need a 2 hour constant pressure/fitness test before we can progress to the 6 belt.

    3. I agree. That said my training includes other important aspects that MMAers don’t, such as knee stamp kicks and throat strikes. Our punches (especially at short range) are very fast and very hard.

    4. I couldn’t agree more. Some of the “self defence” out there is shocking. It gives them a false frame of mind.

    5. I don’t to TSD anymore. ;) Actually, where I was training wasn’t bad competition wise. One of the instructors was a previous world champ. As for contact, is pretty light yeah, but saying that, one instructor got a broken jaw from a hook kick some year back which was then wired such for about weeks! I was almost knocked out in one comp, and last year someone was disqualified for almost giving someone a broken noise.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  18. Guizzy

    Guizzy with Arnaud and Eustache

    ... This is just stunning.

    I've just realised now that the lot of you actually agree on pretty much every count. Yet, you're all still arguing. Let me explain a few reasons why this thread is a massive waste of time for all parties involved.

    Bil Gee and Homer have never claimed MMA are useless and do not transfer to the street. They have said the focus of most MMA schools is not on self-defense. I've yet to see anyone challenging that.

    Gangrel then came with the shortcomings of most TMA schools. Homer actually agreed that many schools are like that. I've yet to see Bil disagreeing with that.

    And now for the kicker.

    Bil Gee
    GangrelChilde
    ... Amazing, isn't it? When polarized by a loaded discussion, people can be blinded into arguing, even when there's no disagreement.

    There's only one and only one real disagreement in this discussion, and in most discussions pertaining to similar subject that end up in flame wars between TMartists and MMartists. It is the following:

    Can a technique be trained without being trained to completion?

    It is the one and only thing you lot are disagreeing upon. While it's a pretty good question, I'm probably gonna dissappoint those waiting with the popcorn ready for another discution...

    There is no answer to this question.

    Yup, that's it. Someone said it. There isn't any way this question could be scientifically studied. Unless God (if he exist) comes down on earth and answers it, it will ALWAYS remain unsolved.

    Why? Because it is not a question that can be decisively answered. As long as there is one person that manages to do a technique he has not trained to completion (which is probably already done), this will be forever debated.

    I wish I had supa Mod powers and declare this subject closed, but I'll have to rely on the lot of you realising that the time wasted here is time wasted not training.
     
  19. mai tai

    mai tai Valued Member

    it was suppossed to debunk the invincible eye gouge......but it got lost....mainly cause eye gouges are banned in nhb.....so it turned into tma vs mma....even though eye gauges can be performed by anyone.

    as far as what you have said......if we go down that road please explain self defense. if you mean win a fight mma will help....if it means avoid a fight no way....mma is all about fighting. guns, knives ,more than one guy... no to that too.


    can a technique be trained without going through all the way....yes but not as well....a close aproximation will do.

    btw while it is fasinating what you noticed.....that we are actually agreeing more than not agreeing......it is human nature to take a side...a bad part when it blinds you

    also keep in mind. you read this and obviously analized it to a fair degree.

    so i must not bore you too much....

    besides this is time i spend between patients at work

    and at home durring comercials on the ball game.....so esentially im just waisting time anyway
     
  20. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    err... Bil Gee... hellooooo. MMA is not my martial art. :D
    Perhaps you noticed my questions didn't have much to do with MMA. Sorry but you need to go back and improve your reading skills.

    Again genius... my point had to do with the rubbish you posted about Muay Thai... not MMA. Go back and read again.

    Nice try but stop trying to shift the focus away from the lies that you told in order to shore up your assertions.

    Classic. So you stood around... understood little and left. Hardly makes you qualified to be spewing the rubbish you do. Jeez do you look silly.

    LOL! Nice and convenient eh. You're fibbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbiiiiinnnnnnnnggg!


    Yeah, so that's a great place to start with blanket statements about martial arts eh. I can see how that is a real solid foundation in Muay Thai - one that truly allows you to post what you do. PFFFFTTTTT!!!!!!!!!

    Do you still not get it? My questions weren't regarding MMA. Stop trying to confuse the facts here. My questions were about what Muay Thai gyms you finished. It still look like you lied. As for the MMA stuff.. with all your issues of MMA and your sexuality I'm not surprised you didn't get on the mat. Maybe if you had you wouldn't be talking such tripe.

    You're flirting with Gangrel Childe has zero to do with me. I'm not interested in your personal life there pal. :p

    Err... wake up. I didn't have anything to do with the Matt Thornton part of the thread... only the part where you jumped in and were running on at length about Muay Thai - which you obviously know squat about. You certainly weren't going to learn much by visiting one class - but for you that was enough to base an entire campaign of slander on... if in reality even that one visit happened. I still think you got caught fibbing. You screwed the pooch and got caught out and now you're trying to cover up. :D

    If you were sure of your case you would have stuck to the points instead of dragging the thread away from those points at every opportunity. But you obviously can't handle anyone saying that the MMA emporer has no clothes.

    Based on what you've posted in regards to your little campaign of fibs it appears that your IQ is in no threat of exhaustion. :eek:
     

Share This Page