The definition of a traditional martial art

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Tom bayley, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, not at all. I share your lack of interest in competition. How you described your feelings towards it is pretty much word for word how I feel!

    There are 2 reasons I take an interest in combat sports:

    1. I'm interested in human movement in general, and fighting in particular, so all fighting is of interest to me.

    2. Young men are the most common perpetrators of violent attacks. MMA and boxing, being the most popular fighting styles/rule sets amongst young men, are going to be the most likely influence on how they move, even if they have never stepped foot in a gym.

    So my point is simply that to be forewarned is to be forearmed.
     
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  2. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    @Flying Crane - have toy seen many of JWT's videos on MAP?
    They are open format, pressure tested and formatted around deescalating and engaging with habitual acts of violence.

    None of which is really relevant to the topic of "traditional arts" or the passing of tradition but its certainly interesting.
     
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    The number of rubbish double legs I've seen from people on nights out are surprisingly high.
     
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  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Again I dont understand what you are arguing here.

    You appear to be arguing that a established competition format is necessary to learn how to fight effectively. Many "traditional" martial artists have competed successfully in full contact competitions. Bas Rutten comes to mind.

    You appear to be arguing that traditional martial arts are fixed and ossified because they do not have specific competition format. but formats are in and off themselves are a way of fixing and ossifying practice.

    You argue that people who have little interest or practical experience of traditional arts have an "equal stake" in defining what a traditional art is and that in spite of their ignorance of the subject there "equal stake" entitles them to define what a traditional art is.
     
  5. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Not me, I could not make it due to logistical problems. but it would not surprise me if you had heard others say similar things.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I haven't said any of that, other than combat sports do have a faster pace of innovation and less reverence for nostalgia than TMA's.

    Bas Rutten didn't take TKD and Karate straight into the ring and start winning though. I don't think he's a good example of TMA training being enough to compete in MMA. He had a Muay Thai career and also had to quickly incorporate wrestling and ground fighting in order to keep up with his opponents.

    As for "equal stake", that's just how binary definitions work. If you think the definition should be based on emotional investment in the term "traditional" then why have a definition at all? Just let whoever wants to use it do so.
     
  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I understand that you are the messenger here and that you are in the most part simply relaying what you have observed of other peoples opinions. My responses are aimed at these opinions not at you individually.
     
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  8. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Please re read my posts on this. My argument is that those who actually do a practice might reasonably have the understanding to define what it is. Nothing to do with emotion.
     
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I really dont understand your argument here. please expand.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    This implies that you already know which arts traditional and which are not. Do you think that boxing or wrestling are traditional martial arts?
    I'm not sure how else to word it. If you define certain arts as traditional, you are also defining all others as non-traditional. If this is about definitions and nothing to do with feelings, then you have affected both equally, as it doesn't matter what either party feel about the definition.
     
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Not so. As previously noted - many styles define themselves as new and improved on past traditional styles. This requires them to define the traditional in order to show how the new is better.

    Who do you say is the best equipped to define County an Weston music? A person who defines themselves as a rap musician who does not listen to Country and Weston. Or someone who defines themselves as a Country and Weston musician?
     
  12. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Not so. as previously noted. words are the tools with which we structure thought and discussion. if a definition is based on an inaccurate description then it. impacts on every dissection that relies on that definition.

    Again - you insinuate that this is about emotion. it is not. It is about clarity of communication.
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Now you are dealing with tautologies.

    You say you don't have a definition for traditional martial arts, but traditional martial artists should define it?

    This is getting too meta even for me!
     
  14. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member


    There is a suggestion here that a single traditional martial art should prepare a student to fight in any situation.

    I am personally unaware of any art that might be called traditional that states it trains for all types of fighting. There are clear differentiations between what arts practice. The principle practices in hung gar are for fighting against a standing opponent. If you do end up on the ground the idea is to get up as quickly as possible. This means that Hung Gar does not teach you ground fighting.

    In my experience it is common for teachers of arts that might be called traditional to encourage students to train in other arts to fill in the gaps.

    SHOCK HORROR – Bruce Lee did not invent the idea of mixing martial arts to become a rounded fighter. Although he was very good at marketing the idea as if it where his own.

    Bas Rutten demonstrated that he was a capable real world fighter using his tykwando. before his MMA carrer. During his MMA carrer he learnt from other arts to fill in the gaps. In my opinion this is entirely consistent with how arts described as traditional work.
     
  15. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    QUOTE="David Harrison, post: 1075068437, member: 69649"] Now you are dealing with tautologies... this is getting too meta even for me![/QUOTE]

    The reason that professions regulate themselves is that someone who identifies as being in a profession is more likely to be knowledgeable of that profession. This is not a tautology it is a observation from the real world.

    Would you want to go to a dentist recognised by the professional Association of accountants?

    Or

    Would you want to go to a dentist recognised by the professional association of dentists?
     
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  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm no expert on Bas Rutten, but didn't his Dutch Muay Thai have something to do with it?
    That analogy only works if you can list training and associations that are recognised as "traditional".

    Again, your argument infers that you already know who is traditional and who is not. You are also talking about people identifying themselves as traditional, which is about how people feel.

    I can identify as a dentist, but unless I have been through recognised training and registered with recognised bodies, I'm not a dentist. There is no debate about who is or is not a dentist.
     
  17. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    You don't have to personally fight MMA to know that you can fight. However, if no one you train with is capable of holding their own at like, the local amateur level; which is 50% dudes who barely train but reckon they have naturally heavy hands; I'd question how confident you can be that you'd be successful against those exact same dudes in a pub car park rather than a cage.
     
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  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Ok then, I confess I misread you. My apologies. I’ve been on some online forums for a long time, and Ive had countless, pointless discussions with MMA folks that went:

    Him: MMA is the only thing that matters, if you don’t do MMA then you suck

    Me: oh well, actually I find my method useful because of A, B, and C. And most importantly, I enjoy it and find it interesting and that keeps me motivated to train. I’m not interested in MMA, I wouldn’t stick with it.

    Him: nope, if you don’t get into a cage then you have no idea how to defend yourself, you will get trashed by any hoodlum on the street.

    Me: You really believe that? I mean people have been defending themselves for hundreds and thousands of years, way before modern MMA even existed. Even in the modern era, where many of us are admittedly more removed from daily violence than people were even a couple generations ago, people have continued to successfully defend themselves way before MMA ever came about and without ever training or competing in MMA.

    Him: MMA is the closest thing to no-rules street fighting that you can get. If you don’t do that, it doesn’t matter what you do. Your kung fu is just another bs traditional style that doesn’t work. Traditional styles don’t work and never have. You need to do MMA of you will lose every fight.

    Me: ok, nice talking to you. Believe what you want.

    I’ve just done that discussion way too many times and I’m over it. I honestly felt this conversation was moving in that direction. I enjoy my training and I do believe in it, and that is what matters to me. What other people want to do is up to them. I don’t have any interest in trying to convince someone otherwise, who is hell-bent on pushing their thing on everyone else. They can believe what they want.

    So I guess that is my baggage, but I try not to throw it on others. I just bow out and say ok, believe what you want, that’s ok and I’m not gonna try to change your mind.

    So to address you two points.

    1: I generally agree in that I am interested in combative methods, but I actively dislike combat. I don’t see it as entertainment, I don’t like to see people get beat up, even in a consensual genre like an MMA or boxing ring. I just find it ugly. On a more personal level, I don’t like to get hurt, and I don’t like to hurt people, even people who have made it clear that they deserve it. I’ve walked away from numerous confrontations where I would have been justified in laying someone out on the street. That does not threaten my masculinity or self-worth. I’m just not interested in pursuing that.

    I enjoy the training for what it is. It is an excellent form of exercise, it is mentally stimulating, and it does develop skills that are useful if I find myself prevented from walking away from a confrontation. I’ve been training with commitment since 1984, and have spent years in several different methods along the way. So I have experienced a number of different approaches to training and I have engaged in the training methodologies of each of those methods, as they were taught and trained in those schools. This included their versions of sparring and interactive engagement to develop the skills. And along the way I’ve actually never needed to defend myself on the street because I find that it’s really pretty easy to get through life without needing to do that. I honestly feel that the world, for the most part, for most of us in Western society anyways, is not so dangerous as some would have us believe. Danger is not lurking around every corner. And much of what we might encounter is actually pretty easy to avoid or walk away from. Much of the petty street violence gets unnecessarily escalated and could be avoided. But that means the participants need to be willing to not take offense and not escalate. For a reasonable person, it isn’t difficult.

    That is not to deny the fact that danger does exist and predators are out there. But as I say, we all decide the level of paranoia to which we will subscribe. I try to keep my level low, but realistic. So I don’t dwell on how to best make myself into an invincible weapon. I just keep up with my training, enjoy it for what it is, and recognize the useful skills that I get from it.

    Maybe I’ve really kind of given insight to how I feel about your second point as well.
     
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    We have very similar feelings on the matter!

    I don't find violence entertaining either, but I watch some MMA or boxing every now and again for the same reason I watch real fights. It's not for entertainment! With the exception of Olympic boxing; if I had to watch one sport it would be that.

    I'm also the same that I have always had enough awareness and social skill to avoid violence, but I have stepped in to protect others in the past.
     
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  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I have not. Who is JWT?
     

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