The debate for and against "chi"

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Black41, May 21, 2011.

  1. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    Would anyone know that they are insane since it's relative to their own outlook and perspective?

    Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Often said and still meaningless
  3. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    Interesting about the ideomotor effect, I'm learning a lot of new things here. That theory was introduced around Einstein's time so chances are he may have come across it, but indeed it is another possible explanation to what takes place. They mention that the validity of the experiments have not been proven. I have tried the simple experiment they have on wiki and it works (holding a piece of string and have it move in the direction of your intention). So I can't disagree with their explanation.

    However, it seems that ability to sense any kind of energy seems unfathomable to people. People always refer to the material or matter as if energy is imperceptible in the body. Einstein said there is no place for both matter and energy for there is only energy. Matter is condensed energy. Where in current mainstream science and medicine do they adopt the paradigm as energy primary and matter secondary?
  4. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    Blatant criticism often said and meaningless.

    Two people could witness the exact same event and have completely different interpretations. Therefore reality is an illusion.
  5. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    Right, not everything mentioned by leading people is valid, but if they have been exploring it, it's worth exploring it too. Like Mobile Dogwash said that some of Einstein's theories have already been superseded in science today.
    However just because something has been proven in one area doesn't disprove something in another area. A does not disprove B. Lack of sympathetic understanding of experience does not disprove mine. Mine says chi exists which has yet to be disproven.
  6. Taeki

    Taeki Valued Member

    if you believe in it then its real right? why worry about what others think?
    I believe in chi, I believe it is beneficial (I admit I have had no real experience with it but I want to)
    Besides it has to have some truth right? even old folk lore have a little truth in them.
  7. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    What, like unicorns, Zeus and King Arthur? :confused:
  8. thefiercehadou

    thefiercehadou Banned Banned

    just because you have never seen or experienced something means it does not exist by your rules.....if a tree falls in the woods with no one to see or hear it does it make a noise?
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yes it does
  10. thefiercehadou

    thefiercehadou Banned Banned

    that was a retorical question which required no answer....
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No it is a question that has an answer on two levels (1)philosophical and (2) real-world

    Whilst these things are mildly diverting and offer a student the chance to move outside oneself mentally they are often used by people in a vain attempt to sound intelligent and mysterious

    It falls, it makes noise
  12. thefiercehadou

    thefiercehadou Banned Banned

    ok i agree there are methods of answering the question but i meant it in a retorical way...
  13. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Then you have to phrase it to be so.

    Anyway rhetorical questions are never going to assert absolution - which is essentially the weakness of arguing for the 'existence' of chi, by way of sideways diversions.

    Personally for me, Chi is not a big deal but can have some manifestations in some circumstances - which can be labelled as 'Chi' - using the language of the ancient Taoists - which is not particularly helpful in the 21st century - unless one is skilled in reading and interpreting ancient Chinese scriptures - and nobody on this board is skilled in either.

    I dont have time or the motivation to seriously join this 'debate'. However all the arguments put forward for the 'existence' of Chi so far in this thread (like all the million predecessor threads), are unfortunately bunkum.

    Why unfortunately? - because useful things can be said about Taoism, Chi and other aspects of Nejia inner CMA - but all the fairy-pixie language and anti-science rhetoric does not add one iota of credibility to such 'debates'.

    My definition of Chi (where it is useful) FWIW:
    1) Spirited intent to make your concentration, movement and inciveness destroy the opponent's Chi/concentration - burst them like a pin into a balloon containing water - their Chi evaporates - your chi(concentration, posture, poise, respitary/muscular co-ordination) remains intact.
    2) an observed neural/spinal/nerve tissue sense of slow muscular/respitorary synchronisation in TaiChi form/Qi Gong/Neigong - but you can find this in other activity completely non oriental e.g Feldenkrais, Alexander Technique.

    Taoism and the ancients did undoubtedly know a thing or 2 about all of this, but we need to be very careful in our language describing these aspects, and not being arrogant/deluded in dismissing western science.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  14. thefiercehadou

    thefiercehadou Banned Banned

    very informative and well rounded responce from embra....i applaud your logic.
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    There is much more objective evidence pointing to the conclusion that a person or persons existed upon which the fictional character(s) we know as Arthur was based than there is unbiased evidence of the "active ingredients" in some of the things mentioned in this thread,or how such ingredients are active-that is to say exactly how they effect the chemical actions in the body.
  16. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    The human body carries an electrical charge that runs on structural pathways known as the nervous (or neurological) system.

    This system pervades the entire organism and carries all signals relating to function, perception and expression.

    Much of the system is automatic, or subconscious, functioning independently of conscious control--intention or thought.
    Other aspects of the system are subject to conscious control.
    Like many of the bodily systems we can take it for granted as it is, accepting its baseline function as normal, or "as good as it gets".
    Or... We can seek ways to train, or enhance, its function.

    Pathologies in the system manifest as Parkinison's Disease, Multiple Sclerosis, or a host of other neurological/neuromuscular disorders.
    Trauma on a mental/psychological level can be locked into and/or stored in the system and manifest as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or a number of other neuroses.

    Healthy functioning of the system manifests as proper functioning of the sensorimotor systems of the body, motor control, mental acuity, or on a slightly more subtle level... a positive outlook and the ability to handle stress in a smooth manner. The level of function, while shaped by genetics, can be impacted by a variety of factors, both internal and external; including but not limited to: diet, exercise, breathing patterns, toxins, drugs (both recreational and therapeutic), and the amount of tension in the system.

    While the flow is automatic, we can guide or prioritize it using nothing more than intention: Examples of this would be as simple as paying attention in class or learning, practicing and gaining prowess in a new skill such as playing a musical instrument, speaking another language or.... learning a martial art.

    The ability to influence or direct the flow of this energy can be demonstrated by a simple exercise: Holding your right hand still, focus your attention on it, and via the simple placement of attention (or intent) notice an increase in the awareness of the sensation in the hand. This sensation is the natural flow of electrical current communicating sensory data from the extremity to the brain... now close the hand into a fist... communicating intent, via the will, to the extremity from the brain.

    Now repeat the exercise with the other hand.
    Then shift your attention back and forth between your hands via nothing more than intent...

    You just moved your chi.
    Like all exercises, it can be practiced so that skill is gained, and other areas of the body can replace the hand as the focus of attention. (The hands are a good place to start as they are particularly rich in nerve endings.) As the ability is dependent on the mind, cultivating mental quietude and concentrated focus is an important component of developing skill.

    Thread won.
    I'm out.

    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I'll buy that for a dollar!
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Unicorns exist!!!!!
  19. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    Just curious, do you practice qigong or in general this type of meditative training? Because there are a few unanswered questions I have. I really like the explanation you've given, so I'd like to hear more of what you got to say.
  20. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I'm shocked and disappointed. I thought Froto was real

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