Don't know, I guess it's one of those things that is claimed and denounced all the time, so it keeps us puzzled.
Why does black41 ignore every decent point made against chi? This is a debate. bounce back off our points before adding your own and we'll have a very interesting talk.
I guess what I mean is that knowledge (understanding) comes from within, that is by reflection and working with it. There are people that "know a lot of stuff" but as far as understanding and knowledge, actually being able to apply it, is another story. And no one will live long enough to make all the mistakes through trial and error, so we rely on experts in the field and learn from them and hopefully we pick the right ones. And I guess I will have to practice and experience myself to really understand chi, how it can be applied and explained. But I know this that there is the physical level in the body (organs, muscles, bones, 5 senses etc.) an energetic level (bio-electric, bio-photons and bio-photon field, emotions, feelings) a mental level (conscious and subconscious, thoughts, beliefs, attitudes) and that these are known and can be explained by western science in general practice. A fourth level intuition, I'm not sure is accepted. So on the second level of energy is where the mystery seems to be as chi and the anatomy that it works with hasn't been completely been accepted (acupuncture has been but still skepticism over the energy pathways "meridians") But all in all, the mind rules the body, so whether one understands the concept of chi and energy or not, the mind is what makes everything happen. It seems that people are in agreement on the mental level and physical level, but there isn't clarity about the energetic level. If we have clarity about all three levels we can train more of our potential, that's what I'm interested in.
actually intuition can be explained. your brain makes connections between things you've seen but actively haven't noticed or taken note of. so when it comes time to make a decision, your brain compiles all this information and you get intuition. you dont know why something is right (because you didnt notice all the clues consciously), but you have a feeling that it is right. Also let me explain these "three levels" in terms of exercise science. the "first level", your physically body consists of organs, muscles, bones, 5 senses etc. as well as the effects of diet on these anatomical features. An exercise scientist should take care of this to ensure a person is working at optimal levels. the "third level", your psychological mental state - conscious and subconscious, thoughts, beliefs, attitudes & EMOTIONS. these should be taken care of to ensure a person is mentally able to cope with stresses. no where here do we need a "second level" to explain anything about a healthy person.
Hey guys, after reviewing this post and how I approached, I realized I need to wipe the slate clean and learn from you. I had too much a one-pointedness mind and overlooked much of what you have said. So I hope this discussion continues on and we can work together synergistically. I had thought I had an open mind, but in fact I didn't, so now, moving on...
dont worry we probably all are a little close minded. i dont really understand the concepts of eastern science to well and would be grateful if you could explain it.
Well, looking at some of the threads that are busy right now, I think this has been going remarkably smoothly, so no worries from me. In the words of Columbo: Just one more question... B41, I watched the video on the 'academy' section of your linked website. Did you try the brick thing yet, but holding down the other side so you don't just catapult it?
Body Awareness This has been my experience: about chi: The Tai-chi training results in being able to feel each part of your body and independently move each part of the body. It allows you to pay attention to all parts of the body at the same time so that you can move all parts at the same time in order to maintain alignment, to control the flow of momentum, etc. The mechanism that this awareness arises from does not seem to me to be just the nervous system. When my body moves in push hands, for example, each part of the body responds by itself. It is not controlled by the head. I can feel an urge or will to respond, localized at each point. Every part of the body has this "urge" at all times and obviously each responds according to its function. While my mind is aware of all this, it does not get involved. I believe this system of awareness and "urge" or "will" to respond can be considered to be chi. It has been called, "Body-Mind". While this does not result in being able to send lightning bolts out of your fingertips, it does greatly increase your power. Your ability to maintain the optimal mechanics at all times is greatly enhanced. Furthermore, I know I can feel within the sparring opponent and know the distribution of his attention at every moment. In this way, I can strike where his attention is weakest. When we talk after sparring or push hands, my partner and I can discuss exactly what was going on inside of each other of us. This body system of awareness also allows you to understand much better, what is going on inside the body of a patient (say in massage) so that you can easily see how to unravel the twistings patterns of both physical and emotional tension and help the patient's body to become more alive (more aware). To me, this is chi - not a tingling sensation in my hands or thunderbolts thrown at the opponent, but a greatly increased sense of awareness of my own and my partner's body and attention.
I've tried it other ways before as well, where I held the one side, but I was hovered over it and came down with a palm strike which then it broke. But without holding it, I can't, like my master did quite easily. I had to pull the "academy" section down because I have to work some things out with my master, so for right now just the "online academy" will be up, which I hope to be adding some more teaching/training videos to it for free to help spread some value about kung fu and what I've learned here.
Black,I'm afraid you'll never find a consensus of clarity as regards the meaning(s)/training of ch'i-even amongst practitioners of the same system. You've got everything from a preponderance of separate exercises to "work/cultivate" the ch'i to no mention of the term. From similar to very different outlooks and methodologies. A lot of this goes back to the multiple definition thingee. Also,the views/theories on the subject as held by MA people can be quite different from that of someone from the medical application side. Belated welcome to MAP .Stick around.
El Medico I've gone back to do more research from the perspective of seeing if there are aspects of it that can be pinned down and I think that may be a difficult one. Perhaps looking into Chinese Medicine might lead to some clues as maybe it's more concrete than abstract. Though I think it will be difficult to apply scientific terms to the whole art of Chinese Medicine and Qigong because it seems like a much different approach. They talk about Jing, Qi, and Shen as what the system revolves around. So pin down literally or aspects the definitions of jing, qi, and shen would be an even bigger task. But I suspect that science can explain things that are taking place when someone does something but the philosophy or the thinking about it will be quite different. So we'll see if some mutual conclusion can be reached. But for now I'll take a look around and crack a few books.
Thanks for the welcome! You know I think you are right, that there may not even be a consensus among the practitioners and just as I was writing about looking into the medical, you were already responding, lol, that they may have a whole different take on it. Also among kung fu that is often debated among masters here and that is more concrete than abstract chi. And the multiple definition thingee I think is a slippery one. So I don't know if there can be a successful merging of the two systems, west and east.
Getting a knowledge of TCM isn't a bad thing-just remember it is one field of outlook and application-and may not be in accord even with other TMs.In "energetic" matters there's a lot in the various fields and sub-fields of a given area of study that is worldview,not actual absolutes. A worldview that may be unable to reconcile with the definitions and applications of same as utilized by the Pa Kua instructor down the block-whose definitions and usage may be just as correct as whatever findings you come up with in regards to your definition(s). So if someday you find that the various elements in the body actually produce a measurable...something...which has some effect(s) on the body and you announce "This is Ch'i,and this is what it does." don't expect the whole world to agree. You'd have found "a" ch'i. El Medico advises Grecian Formula for those prematurely going grey from this sort of endeavor. EDIT-after Black's post #32. Forget about merging East and West.You can't merge East and East! It's not always even a matter of right vs. wrong-just different meanings and methods.
Uncovering a 10,000 y/o mystery Ok guys I've uncovered some pretty heavy stuff about “chi” or “ki” if you are up for it. It comes from my experience from visiting Dr. Klinghardt and researching what he is teaching. He is renowned for having developed the best Pain clinic in the U.S.A. and has been awarded Physician of the Year by the International College of Integrative Medicine in 2007. And because he is in the Integrative Medicine field, he has been violently attacked by people in conventional medicine and universities. So I think it's best to cover this a bit otherwise people will simply discount it. He first started in conventional medicine and too was critical of people outside of conventional medicine, he said, “I went through the same learning curve as the conventional medical community goes through now. I was first angry at him, then I was denying it, and I was trying to prove him wrong, and then I said to all my patients – well, I have known this all along. Laughter. I had the same arrogance and the same resistance to it” So he responds to people that get angry at him in the conventional field by saying, “Let’s try and give a little compassion to those people who have been violently attacking us all over the place for reasons that are kind of strange. What benefit are they going to have out of it. I mean, is there going to be an argument by vote - three people are against it and one is for it; does it mean it doesn’t exist? Truth by vote or by expert opinion has never quite worked.” Here is an example of how things work in the conventional medicine field: “...the Australian guy got the Nobel Prize for discovering that stomach ulcers are caused by H-Pylori: I was teaching in the eighties in Australia and I was just there after he had done his first publication on it – I was just there teaching at the University of Sidney teaching Prolo-Therapy – when I heard about this weird guy and he just had lost his license. It was not at all mentioned when he got the Nobel Prize – but this guy actually lost his license for discovering that stomach ulcers are caused by H-Pylori ---- then a year later it was reinstalled when some friend at the University repeated the study just to redeem his license – he just wanted to help him, he didn’t care about the H-Pylori – he just wanted to help his friend – he confirmed the results, because of that he got his license back, and now he got the Nobel Prize for it. I thought this was great. That really showed that the Nobel people in Sweden - they are good people, they know the trend in politics and know who to support a little bit.” So with that being said, I hope it clarifies some things about conventional medicine, and to also note that Einstein had very similar opposition that he had to go through, “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” So there are some really amazing people doing really amazing things outside of the conventional field. So lets jump into it. Here is a quick shot overview of what “chi” is as defined by science as relates to the body: “Our body's biofield is an accumulation of electromagnetic energies emitted from all of our cells, tissues, organs, and glands. Although the body's biofield (infrared spectrum of light) is not visible with the human eye, it is detectable with some very sophisticated and sensitive equipment. This biofield, or light field, is produced and emitted by the body and through some very peculiar properties of light; it is also carrying information from our surroundings, in the form of electromagnetic signals, back into the physical body. The ANS (Autonomic Nervous System) then has an opportunity of responding to that electromagnetic / stress signal. Biophysicists, such as Fritz-Albert Popp, PhD, have discovered that the body produces photons of light called biophotons. These biophotons are stored and released from the nucleus of our body's 70 trillion cells. And these biophotons carry information within and between cells. Dr. Popp has written and published eight books and more than 150 scientific journals (International Institute of Biophysics - www.lifescientists.de).” “The body has electrical currents running through it...In eighth grade science we learned that whenever there is an electrical current, there exists a magnetic field that associates itself with this current.” My words: So this is why people note that they feel a magnetic sensation when practicing qigong. For more in depth reading, start at the beginning of work explained at: http://www.drchuckcochran.com/articles/autonomic-response-testing/ But for convenience, I attached the most relevant information below from a few sources: Klinghardt integrated knowledge that as a human being we function on five different levels. Diagnosing and Treatment are targeted on the level where the original cause for the body's homeostasis to become imbalanced. The five levels are represented by: Physical Body – Sensations (5-Senses), Action/Motion Electromagnetic Body – Feelings, emotions, bio-electric, bio-photons Mental Body – Beliefs, Attitudes, Thoughts Intuitive Body – Symbols, Trance, Meditative state, Dreams Spiritual Body – Bliss, Oneness with God. This level represents the patient's own experience and journey, therefore, is not treated by the practitioner His comprehensive way of diagnosing is through “Autonomic Response Testing” (A.R.T). Dr. Klinghardt developed this technique with the help of Louisa Williams, MS, DC, ND, and Yoshiaki Omura, MD. ART is a very advanced and accurate method of muscle testing. Autonomic Response Testing (ART) has taken the art and science of muscle testing to an entirely different level. The Autonomic Nervous System (ANS) is the portion of our nervous system that requires no conscious thought and functions automatically throughout the day. The ANS helps to control the beating of our hearts; the rise and fall of blood pressure; the detoxification of the body's poisons; the digestion, assimilation, and elimination of our foods; the balancing of all our hormones; proper immune system responses; proper blood sugar levels; maximum brain function; and every automatic function of the body's organs and glands. The ANS receives information from our biofields. Our body's biofield is an accumulation of electromagnetic energies emitted from all of our cells, tissues, organs, and glands. Although the body's biofield (infrared spectrum of light) is not visible with the human eye, it is detectable with some very sophisticated and sensitive equipment. This biofield, or light field, is produced and emitted by the body and through some very peculiar properties of light; it is also carrying information from our surroundings, in the form of electromagnetic signals, back into the physical body. The ANS then has an opportunity of responding to that electromagnetic / stress signal. Biophysicists, such as Fritz-Albert Popp, PhD, have discovered that the body produces photons of light called biophotons. These biophotons are stored and released from the nucleus of our body's 70 trillion cells. And these biophotons carry information within and between cells. Dr. Popp has written and published eight books and more than 150 scientific journals (International Institute of Biophysics - www.lifescientists.de). A great analogy here is how light is used with fiber-optics to carry the electromagnetic signal of our voice to someone in Europe. Light carries information in the form of electromagnetic signals. Scientists have calculated that one color of a beam of light can carry 200 terabits (terabit = one trillion bits) of information per second. The entire Library of Congress has only 30 terabits of information in it. With ART different substances are introduced into the patient's biofield with the help of specialized light-carrying devices called Signal Enhancers. There is no physical contact with the potential stressor. Only electromagnetic signals of the substances carried by photons of light are allowed into the biofield. If the body recognizes any of these signals as a stressor, through a neurological process carried from the ANS to the brain and the brain back to the body, a change in muscle tone can be observed. This change in muscle tone can be evaluated with a very simple muscle test. This is not a muscle strength test (of how strong you are but if your muscle stays strong or goes weak). The muscle will actually lose its ability to lock the joint. Other stressors that can be evaluated with the use of ART include transgenerational thoughts, destructive emotions, environmental allergies / sensitivities, dental problems (such as incompatible dental materials and chronic infections), geopathic stress, and electromagnetic frequency stress (cell phones, cell phone towers, microwaves, un-insulated home power wires). Why is ART so accurate and such an improvement over other similar forms of bio-feedback or muscle testing? Autonomic Response Testing is one of the most reliable and accurate forms of muscle testing. If performed consciously by a well-practiced practitioner, traditional laboratory results can not even come close to the reliability and accuracy of ART. And, it allows us to participate in the patient's health conditions on levels that can not be experienced with any other diagnostic procedures. The body has electrical currents running through it. Because of these electrical currents, we can measure brain activity using an electroencephalogram (EEG) or we can measure the electrical activity of the heart using an electrocardiogram (ECG). In eighth grade science we learned that whenever there is an electrical current, there exists a magnetic field that associates itself with this current. In other words, the body has a polarity - a positive and negative pole or North and South Pole, if you prefer. Switching refers to these poles becoming reversed. In other words, the positive pole now exists where the negative pole should be and vice versa. Blocked Regulation Blocked regulation is a phenomenon that occurs when the body's cells lose their ability to produce coherent light. Light coherence is a term that describes light's ability to focus much like a laser light. Laser light is very focused and thus coherent. Light produced by a flashlight is diffuse and not coherent. The light produced and released by our cells is more coherent than any man-made laser. If the light stays focused (coherent), it maintains its ability to carry information in the form of electromagnetic signals. A coherent state is when the body's light (biophotons from our cells) leaving the body simultaneously re-enters the body carrying information in a holographic pattern. In other words, each photon carries all of the information contained in all of the other biophotons about every cell in the entire body. Every cell in the body knows instantaneously what is happening in every other cell in the body. Once the body loses its coherency and the light becomes more like a flashlight than a laser, the cells lose their ability to communicate with each other. It would be like a one group of cells speaking French, another group speaking German, while another group is speaking Latin. We've got problems! With the use of polarized light filters and signal enhancers, we now have the ability to determine if blocked regulation exists, how much regulation has been lost, what has caused it, and how to remedy it. If a practitioner is not looking for neurogenic switching and blocked regulation prior to their testing procedures, there is no guarantee that the information received from the body is going to be correct.” Then from Dr. Mercola wrote: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...ute-Best-Muscle-Testing-System-I-Know-of.aspx “Yin and Yang We differentiate between Yin states and Yang states, and much of our decision making is based on an understanding of both. A Yin state is an internal state, in which healing, regeneration and detoxification occurs. It is accompanied by increased parasympathetic tone and the client may show related body signs: slowed heart rate, increased flow of saliva, increased bowel motility, feeling of relaxation or neutral emptiness. The 12 acupuncture meridians are paired: one is Yin, one is Yang. The ones channeling the Yin energy are the ones we cannot live without (heart, liver, lung, etc.), the Yang ones are the ones we can live without (Gallbladder, Colon, bladder, etc.). Yang states are states of increased strength, increased sympathetic activity, outgoing energy, in which the person is alert, awake, and able to move and respond and interact with the environment in well adapted and intelligent ways. The person is strong, but not blocked. Sympathetic tone is increased while parasympathetic activity is not suppressed. We differentiate carefully between Yang and blocked regulation. On the surface both look similar. In blocked regulation the client is also strong, but only with increased sympathetic activity, without the accompanying increase of parasympathetic activity. In blocked regulation heart rate is increased, adrenalin is increased, skin is dry and cold. There is tension and anxiety. In a Yang state the skin stays warm, the person stays relaxed – aware of his/her strength.” How can this be applied to martial arts? If you noticed they mentioned that our biophotons are highly coherent (highly focused) more than any laser, and since the body is ONE system, you can use your mind to focus all that energy into a given task. The result, much more power. If your mind is diffused and unfocused, we know that the results aren't nearly as great. You don't need to know the science behind it, but all you need to know is that by doing visualization, focusing and breathing techniques, your results are noticeably improved.
I understand what you are saying Zaad about simplifying into 2 levels. As when you experience certain thoughts, they are directly linked with emotions. But there is a 2nd level as emotions are not felt in the brain but in the body. It is where mind meets body is where the emotions are felt. For example I heard it explained that when Navy SEALs are going through their intense physical training, the sh** literally gets scared out of them because fear hits the kidneys and when there is a emotional shock to the kidneys, they are incapacitated, they stop working and thus they loose all their bowel movements and bladder control, thus they literally sh** and **** their pants. So they will hit the can before they go into their intense training. Also emotions reside in other areas such as the throat in fear as "hard to swallow" and in the stomach when one is worried and they can develop ulcers. So your emotions are feedback to let you know that what you are thinking is good or bad. And also there are ways of working on the emotional level when people "freeze" because of fright. To break from this state, they yell or do deep breathing. So in this case it is a different level than thoughts.
What you're referring to here sounds like a high-level adrenaline rush. A wash of adrenaline pumping through the body is designed to trigger the fight-or-flight reflex, and shuts down all non-essential systems (i.e. digestion) in order to better divert energy to those required for escape. In the first case adrenaline again most likely, in the second continuous stress and anxiety puts strain on the various bodily systems, hence why ulcers and the like develop. Stress and anxiety aren't necessarily emotions as such, they're autonomic reflexes triggered in danger situations. All of the actual 'feelings' are registered in the brain, both the mental state and the feedback from various bodily systems which are affected. Emotions and stress reactions are not the same thing, nor is a 'positive' emotion necessarily tied to a positive situation or state of mind, and vice-versa. The freezing because of fright is generally adrenaline shock where someone's unused to the feeling, and are trying to assess the appropriate reaction to the danger.
derderderderderp These are are neurological effects of stress at different levels. fear isnt in the kidneys, its in the brain which triggers the kidneys. again though. explain eastern science then maybe ill understand better
Here is a brief overview of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) as it relates to emotions and the organs in the body: Certain organs are related to emotional activities - the heart is related to joy, the liver to anger, the spleen to pensiveness, the lungs to anxiety and the kidneys to fear. So a few example, people that are hard alcoholics it affects their livers and under TCM that relates to anger, that's why there are some angry drunks out there (but there are a few happy ones!). The kidneys as far as I understand control your bodily functions (going #1 & #2) and it relates to fear, so they lose their ability to control it when frightened. When people get anxious, they get short of breath and may find it hard to breath and breathing becomes shallow "chest breathing". TCM works on the energetic level of the human system, so under Dr. Klinghardt's model for healing, he groups it in the energetic level, rather than the physical. You can check out his model of 5-Levels of Healing: http://www.naturalworldhealing.com/philosophyofhealth/5-levelmaptohealing.htm I understand that the brain receives the signal of the emotion or feeling as it travels along the nervous system. And under Klinghardt's model that is grouped with the energetic processes, ("summation of all electric and magnetic events caused by the neuronal activity of the nervous system"). And with his model of healing, the second level also includes the emotions and feelings. Though I can see how a different model would simply group it under the physical and mental level, and the electrical activity is simply part of the physical level. Also conventional medicine should also be able to explain what is happening during this process and should be in alignment to the effects that result. Which LilBunnyRabbit explained "A wash of adrenaline pumping through the body is designed to trigger the fight-or-flight reflex, and shuts down all non-essential systems (i.e. digestion) in order to better divert energy to those required for escape" So I see nothing wrong with his approach and doesn't conflict with how I see things, because things are taking place on many levels simultaneously. But I guess conventional view doesn't necessarily accept the integrative view.
Maybe i should have structured my question better... What is the scientific method used by eastern science and how did they use this to confirm the existence of chi?
