The Cobra Kai of the FMAs, Pekiti Tirsia (Good or Bad?)

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by IgitDako, Jun 24, 2010.

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  1. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    The target of the open challenge is for GMs, Masters, and Instructors. People who own schools, making money off of patty cakes and stick twirling. For Quality Control. :woo:

    I didn't know you were also a Psychologist. :rolleyes:

    We are talking about their challenge invitations, aren't we? :Aegis:

    More Ad Homimens, just answer the challenge and show. Raymond Suba is the only guy who did, but people are quick to copy and paste his claim of being there, to save their own asses. Go figure. :bang:
  2. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    no, we're talking about your assertions. they've been shown to be wrong, yet you persist, under the cover of anonymity. that makes you a troll. unless you're willing to disclose your identity, i'm done with you.

  3. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    My assertions? Those are Challenges from them. What was I wrong about? That more people actually showed for the Challenge? Because that didn't happen. That there are not many, too many, FMA McDojos out there just teaching patty cake drills? Because I know I'm not wrong there. That challenges is the reason FMA developed, but now that no one participates in challenges, you have patty cake drills? This we can argue further, but I seem to be right on here as well. Ad Hominems are good when you can't argue further. When you're done, your done. Don't speak ill, because you can't add anything further to the discussion, that's even more 'trollish'. :rolleyes:
  4. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    :woo: :eek:

  5. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    I take offense to the way you are saying it because you have so little actual experience in the FMA - who are you to judge what is crap and what is not? Have you fought these people? Trained with these people for a time? For a person who is so opinionated about the way things are and the way things should be, you have very little first-hand experience. If you were more skilled, knowledgeable, or a better fighter than some of these fakes (which you have yet to identify), then at least you'd have a bit of credibility on your side. However, without knowing who you are referring to, it just sounds like you're claiming the whole of the industry to be in a sorry state of affairs, which - in my actual experience (at least here in the UK) - it is most definitely not. Rather, it continues to go from strength to strength, with fakes being identified and excommunicated, and increasingly more of the sound educators pooling their efforts and exchanging knowledge (ref: BCKEAI).

    Though you've proposed a great discussion topic, your attempt to "educate" the other forum members with nothing but conjecture and speculation on your side is perhaps a silly direction to take :bang:

    The major problem with your analogy was that Daniel-san was encouraged by consistent harrassment from a bunch of guys who were clearly more skilled, experienced, and capable than he. In short, their pursuit of him was a very tenacious and active campaign. Cobra-Kai did not just sit back and say "come and get us if you think you're hard enough." That would not have encouraged him to better himself one bit. And thus your analogy, and the supposed intent of the challenge itself, is fatally flawed. What i'm saying is that, if there is indeed a particular group or individual so intolerant of counterfeit instructors, then surely they should take a more pro-active stance to stamp it out by paying a few visits to the fakes in question? And surely failure to do this could also be seen as tolerance of such detractors as well (ie. hypocrisy, to an extent).

    With regards Gaje's challenge specifically, i see it as nothing special at all (apologies to any fanboys i might have offended there). I myself have the attitude that if a person thinks i'm full of sh*t and need a good kicking to put me in my place, they are welcome to come and do it. However, i seem to be doing ok on that front, and although i'm certainly still learning and developing my art (as is Mr. Gaje himself), no-one has yet seen fit to come and have a go. Does this mean there are people cowering away from me? If so, i'm flattered! :D The way i see it, as soon as a person takes on the role of an instructor, they are liable to have themselves tested - anytime, by anyone. Thus in a way, both counterfeit and authentic instructors advertise an open challenge as soon as they start teaching. Seems there's a whole lot of cowering going on then. Everywhere...

    But bringing it back to the initial debate: Does this mean we need roaming "FMA death squads" as a means of strengthening the industry? I believe not, as the proof is in the pudding. If people are fickle enough to buy into the first easy ride that comes their way, then they will never reach their true potential. Indeed, those that have the strength of character to train hard and test themselves deserve to get that little bit more out of the art. Thus the fakes and easy rides are a somewhat important factor in dividing the weak and easily bought, from the strong-willed future pioneers of the art.
  6. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    I'm speaking in general here, not specifics. Do you really think the sorry state of affairs in the FMAs is good? We can both agree to disagree, but I believe the watering down of our arts and lessening of efficacy is bad.

    As for identifying these fakes, we already know who they are. No need to break the rules of this forum to point out who they are.

    As for my experience, this falls to ad hominems again. Leave my level out of this, because I am not speaking of me and I am not issuing challenges here. I am merely pointing out that some arts will continue to devolve without proper combat testing.

    To quote M. Tim Waid:

  7. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    The problem with this solution is that many of the fakes have publicly threatened law suits and arrests. So the best thing to do is to issue an open challenge or a specific challenge, which have gone unanswered. Sadly. :bang:

    Do you know of any fake instructors advertising an open challenge, past or present? I rest my case. :star:

    Can you explain why the fakes are earning more money and notoriety with their stick patty cake drills? They are the ones promoting FMA these days. We should all be worried and encourage these fakes to answer these challenges so we can separate the wheat from the chaff. :cool:
  8. kuntaoer

    kuntaoer Valued Member

    Seems some one has been drinking from the community kool aid bowl.. For some one with very little experience in the FMA, you are letting your bird dog mouth over load your humming bird @ss. Until you have been to the Philippines and experienced the real training done there and sparred in some of the matches there, stay out of the big dog's path..
  9. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Did you go to the Testing of Skills? :woo:
  10. kuntaoer

    kuntaoer Valued Member

    The testing of skills is a relatively new event.. I was training in the Philippines back in the 70s and the first national tourney or challenge was done in 1979. But we had several guys from our club that would fight on the eskrima matches on the old full contact show that was hosted by Roland Dantes and was televised out of Manila by the then GMA 7 tv channel.. We also had matches in the provinces between the different clubs or systems, all were live stick and I had my share of fights with the club I was training with at the time..
  11. KMA

    KMA Valued Member

    I think PTK is a good martial art, but I also think every martial art has value.
    People are different. Certain styles of martial arts appeal to some more than others. For example; I have no interest in weapons training, so I have found martial arts that don't have it or have little of it.

    I hate when people these terms when referring to their martial art: real, true, only, or best. The term is only an opinion and not necessarily fact. If you don't like PTK then PTK practitioners will have to deal with it.

    I think it's idiotic for people to make challenges via a forum. Personal challenges are great if both parties are interested in a match of skill, and fight with respect for each others talent and bravery in the ring.
  12. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Assuming all the above is true. I commend you for combat testing your art, instead of just doing patty cake stick drills. If I had your skills and experience (again assuming it's true) I would have attended the Test of Skills too, so I can test it against Pekiti Tirsia practitioners, instead of just bad mouthing them, I'd be able to say, 'I pitted against Tim Waid and Mel Tortal and I kicked their ass', you'd have that instead of 'kool aid' or 'cult' innuendoes :rolleyes:.
  13. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    I agree with your latter statement (obviously), but as mentioned, i do not feel that FMA here in the UK is in a sorry state of affairs at all. In fact, i believe the contrary - that knowledge is more accessible than ever before, bullsh*t merchants are becoming increasingly isolated, and i am free to test my abilities in a diverse range of formats. This may not be the case outside of the UK, but to be honest, the fate of anyone who doesn't take the bull by the horns with their training doesn't really concern me. You've either got the initiative to question what you know and develop yourself, or you haven't.

    Ok, so surely if you are unsure of the principals of other systems, then why not discuss them? I am always happy to answer inquisitive students and visitors to my class as best i can - i believe it shows my worth as an instructor, and it also helps me continually evaluate the effectiveness of what i'm doing. Thus i encourage it.

    Asking why a particular drill is practiced despite x, y, and z comes across a lot better than proclaiming that anyone who doesn't answer Gaje's challenge is a coward, and the FMA industry is crippled by fraudsters! Dismissing something with a sweeping generalisation is far easier than having to educate yourself about it though: A practice often endorsed by fraudsters in martial arts. And just because Tim Waide didn't fancy it, doesn't mean it's no good to anyone else. As i tell my students - don't EVER take my word on something just because i say so. Test it for yourself, explore limitations of the material, then form an opinion on it.

    I concede that the first section of my previous reply is somewhat ad hominem. But you'll also notice that my main point there is the validity of your statements, and what they're based on. You must understand that you are arguing with people who actually do know better than you about the things you are passing judgement on. Not from quoting sources or making assumptions, but from actual personal experience.
  14. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    (On going out and paying fraudulent instructors a visit...)

    I think this is best answered with one of your own quotes:

    If you think you need an official invitation to go and give someone a hiding, then clearly you know very little about combatives in general. Don't make excuses for people - if they feel as strongly as you say they do about the alleged patty-cake-selling conmen of the FMA, then they'd be out there tanning hides left right and center. Maybe they are just being drama queens with no desire for a scrap at all. Or maybe you are just talking out of your **** on behalf of people you've never actually met, about people you don't actually know, about things you know nothing about.

    Like i said, when someone takes up the mantle of instructor, their status automatically makes them fair game for a challenge. Just because someone issues a formal open challenge in writing, doesn't make them superior in any way. In fact, if i have interpreted it right, Gaje's challenge was directed at those who believe him or PTK to be inferior. But what if someone doesn't believe PTK to be inferior? Are they then a coward for not turning up for a scrap? See, us Rapid Arnis folk are a little bit simple sometimes - if there's no reason to cave someone's head in, then we won't go out of our way to try and find one. If one finds us though? Brace yourself...

    See, now here's the thing - you sound a bit conceited over the whole fame and fortune thing here. My own priorities are to train my students to 1) Protect themselves and their loved ones, 2) Be confident and resourceful, 3) Enjoy what they do and appreciate what is done by others. Fame and fortune doesn't come into it, and so i am not particularly upset when others achieve it - whether it's through superior ability, superior luck, or superior charisma. Either way, they would not be able to maintain such a coveted position without at least some degree of ability backing them up. They have no reason to answer challenges of any kind - after all, they're happy where they are. If you want to get at them then, i'm afraid you'll have to stop talking and start acting. But you won't do that. Neither will your mates (if you do indeed have any that share your skewed vision of FMA). Tell you what - i'll even give you some excuses to choose from for not going out to beat the crap out of the charletans:-

    1. It would be too expensive and inconvenient to go hunt them down.
    2. He's actually better than me - I'm too young to die!
    3. I'm actually better than him - I'm too pretty to go to jail!
    4. I have better things to do, and can't be arsed.
    5. It's someone else's responsibility - someone better qualified, maybe?

    Take your pick - i think we're all expecting more empty words and no surprises though. Drumroll please... ... ... ...
  15. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    The simple, but big difference here is that M. Tim Waid is ready, any time/any where, to put his art to the test. As an early student, the fact that those above me have and are willing to test what they are testing is very important. To me, with my limited knowledge, M. Tim Waid's critique hits the nail of what we have been discussing right square in the head. If you don't test your art, you will put yourself and others in danger. It's no good period, we've covered this very basic difference and why it doesn't work in day one. I'm surprise, you're justifying and defending it, quite honestly. :rolleyes:
  16. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    You can 'What If' this to death. Show or do not show, but don't mock those who are issuing the annual Open Challenge. If everyone can show, instead of offering excuses, trust me, our FMA will be better for it. :cool:
  17. Raymund Suba

    Raymund Suba Valued Member

    If you're asking around about me and the 2008 test of skill challenge- it would be helpful for you to ask, not about who fought in 2008 but who went. Rommel Tortal was the one with whom we corresponded with. This is my description of the event. (it was originally posted in FMA forums)
    "Oh yeah, forgot to say something about last Saturday. My friends and I went to Batanggas to participate. Unfortunately the Pekiti people were also conducting a Training seminar and were not able to organize the "test of skill" participants. (By participants here I mean myself and two of my friends)

    We arrived at 10am, but unfortunately their seminar was at full swing and they tried to squeeze us into their schedule. So in the mean time we were invited to train with them. We trained with them until about lunch time, at which we inquired about the "sparring sessions" that were to take place.

    Unfortunately, the day's schedule had already been set and it would only have been possible to fight at 7pm. With fighting time, recovery time and travel time back to Manila, we would be home at about 10, This came into conflict with some of my companion's commitments to which they had to go to later that evening.

    Everyone was sorry all around that we couldn't push through with the test of skill, so Rommel Tortal graciously offered the following weekend, Sat, Feb 16, or perhaps the next seminar, to be a better date for this, as they could schedule it into their seminar's activities. We were unsure of how feasible Feb 16 would be for us, but we agreed to keep in touch to hammer out a solid plan.

    As this week went on, it seems that none of us would be able to go next Saturday. So all we could do is look forward to the next one."
  18. kuntaoer

    kuntaoer Valued Member

    If you would care to read my post, you will find that I did not bad mouth the PTK practitioners.. I stated in an earlier post that I have several friends and acquaintances who are senior practitioners of PTK.. They have heard all of the challenges and badmouthing from all types of people.. The kool aid or cult innuendos that you are referring to are that of your own opinion.. The opinions of others do not reflect my opinions, I am just stating what I have seen over the past 20 or so years in the PTK community and in particular the newer practitioners who try to make themselves more important in the system than they are.

    BTW: My posting reflecting the training and competitions on the full contact show of the late 70s and early 80s can be verified by anyone of the people who trained in the Philippines during this time.. It was a nation wide telecast and on July 4, 1980, (which by the way was Filipino/American Friendship day at the time) the Fil/Am friendship tourney at Clark AB was broadcast nation wide and GM Roland Dantes was present at this tourney as a Guest announcer.
  19. BakbakanFighter

    BakbakanFighter Valued Member

    And who are you to judge others? How long have you been training? I think if anyone has missed the point of FMA, then it is you!

    I am not too scared to visit the philippines, I just dont need to, I have already proven myself here. Plus I dont see the point in spending money flying out there to fight someone just to prove I am better than them. Plus, I do not hide where I am, so if anyone wants to come and "practise" with me, they are more than welcome! If you are so awesome, then come and visit me. We can spar in a live situation and see how good you are!

    I am not scared nor have I taken offense. I just think that you are an internet warrior who is clearly trying to stir up controversy.

    For me all styles of FMA that I have seen have merit and are all effective and yet all different. Just because twirly stick movements doesnt suit you and you dont like it doesnt make you right. You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is.

    Instead of say we are all scared, take a look at yourself my friend. Man up, tell us who you think is no good then go meet with them to show them why you are better, unless of course you are scared!

    Until you have walked the walk, dont try and talk the talk.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  20. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    I'm not mocking the person(s) issuing the open challenge. I'm mocking you.

    You evade even the most straightforward of questions.
    You condemn people for making excuses on things that you yourself are making excuses on.
    You are barely qualified to swing a stick, and your "insight" consists of nothing but inaccurate generalisations about the entire FMA community, and a bit of hero-worship.

    Now as ad hominem as that might be, you started the debate, and you're talking the smack, so it's your ass on the line. To be quite honest though, it sounds more like you're trying to advertise PTK and get people to come visit you, than put together a constructive argument.

    Like i said, from the small amount of PTK i've been shown, i have been left hungry for more. I look forward to exploring the system in the future. However, if the arrogance and hubris you've shown here is typical of the types of people i'll meet and train with in your system, i'd better give some serious thought before spending my hard-earned cash on advice from your "experts," lest they turn out to be just like you - all mouth, no trousers.

    Finally, if you reckon the fraudsters in the FMA need to be exposed, then stop wasting time and go out there and do it. If you feel the FMA is in such a dire state of affairs because of them, then truly this must be quite an urgent matter to you. Seeing as you're such an expert on combatives and so well researched on the FMA, your reaction to such a threat should be immediate and direct should it not? Instead you choose to talk big and posture with nothing but empty words. Is this what you have been taught? Show or do not show but do not insult those who have more fighting ability in their little finger than you have in your entire body.
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