The Bunkai Thread

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Llamageddon, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Going through my copy of Karate Do Kyohan , page 71 clearly shows the downward movement

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    which does not in any way specifically indicate that it is in any way, shape or form obligatory to consider it a specific technique by itself, which itself is not in any way shape or form a reason to start such an argument when the original criticism was over misuse of an unrelated term.

    additionally, neither the pictures not the text instructions show the downwards movement being done before the first move. this could be seen to mean, as i mentioned earlier, that the movement is simply an inversion of the movement that is to follow, so that it can be executed in its entirety: the hands have to go up, so they go back down first. if a case is made to give that downwards motion some sort of use, it ties in with using it as a takedown over the lead leg after striking the opponent, and is mirrored on the other side by lowering the hands in preparation for the juji-uke.
     
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Coherent sentences please. :)
     
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I don't have my older edition of Kyohan at home at the moment (Sampsi has it), but I can confirm that in Jutsu the description makes no mention of a lowering before the first movement.

    With reference to the changing aspects of this argument, may I remind you that consistency is the defence of a small mind. :)
     
  5. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    coherent sentences are for the weak.
     
  6. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    And for those wishing to be understood ;)
     
  7. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    well, i don't believe it is entirely unreasonable to expect someone to ask what something means when they don't understand it, instead of only criticizing the delivery method while remaining just as uninformed as to the original content, no? :)
     
  8. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    If you look to the bottom of the scanned page , there is a footnote (13)
    I find the wording interesting for 2 reasons
    1/ The use of the word "customary" which , to me , implies that it may indeed just be a flourish , as some have said.
    2/ It's actually described as a block , not an escape or lock.
    Now I happen to really like the application that JWT uses , and can't see why the kata would show a block without an obvious counter.
    I've just had a quick look at my own copy of Karate Jutsu , and although there is no description/bunkai for this movement , when describing the movement in pinan shodan (as it's still described at that point) , it simply says the front hand is a block and the back hand is prepared to counter , could it really be this simple ?
     
  9. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Are you saying JWT is uninformed on the content?!
     
  10. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I suspect he means me.
     
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    ah, good catch! didn't see it, sorry :)

    as far as it using the term "block", well, the subject of what blocks are or aren't has been done to death :p.
    outside of shoto material, i've generally been taught, and seen taught, that in these sort of movements it's generally the front hand that strikes, however as with everything, the movement is in fact abstract (and has been mutated to hell and back over time) and can potentially be any number of things, hence the possibilities i mentioned in my original post.
     
  12. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    no, i mean the content of my post, ie what i meant with the wording i used, which got called out as incoherent and not understandable.
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I could understand it. It wasn't coherent though. You are normally one of our best posters, so a lapse in form will be picked up. :)

    Reference block / strike / application etc... So far as I am concerned Itosu and Funakoshi were predominantly passing on a physical tradition with a view to self improvement through exercise. If Funakoshi knew practical Karate applications he certainly does not seem to have publicly passed them on. There are lots of references to practical stuff in his general technique descriptions and throwing sections (of his older editions books) but he has not carried these over to his descriptions of Kata application, instead he seems to be encouraging students to work them out for themselves (in other words you don't get the decent stuff for free, you have to earn it through hard training).
     
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i dunno, seemed coherent enough to me. which parts were wonky?

    re: funakoshi: agreed, although having seen what little i've seen of his actual stuff re: applications (pictures, mostly), he did seem to know a little more than is usually suspected by most people, hence i wonder how much of the non-transmission of technique application in shotokan was more due to the influence of the early JKA's university clubs (similarly to how shiai kumite came to be so prominent).
     
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    This bit:

    It's like listening to John Prescott.

    This bit is better, but could do with fewer clauses, more sentences and more capital letters:

    :yeleyes:

    Are you on your phone? :)
     
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    capital letters are for the weak :p
     
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Next you'll tell us "Words are for the weak, in the new world order there are only cookies and karate."
     
  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    no, most definitely not.

    there is also chocolate milk.
     
  19. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I like the sound of this new world order , where do I sign up ?
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    do tekki shodan ten times, blindfolded, in the rain. we'll find you.
     

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