The Bunkai Thread

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Llamageddon, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Could not get the link to work JWT.
     
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Changed it - hope it works now!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRvO4AgoYI0"]YouTube - Aliveness[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I had a root around and dug up these two movies from May 2005 of 8th and 9th Kyu students playing with the Heian Flow System.

    Note the range is far too long.


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t593WnvQWus"]YouTube - Heian Sandan[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43O7twU_OJY"]YouTube - Heian Sandan[/ame]
     
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    As an additional point, with theses 3 old videos it is worth comparing the range and distancing I'm using while applying the Heian Sandan techniques to that used by junior grade students who have just learned the drills but do not actually know the Kata.

    One other thing to note is that in my demonstration I've used S Bend and Straight arm bar finishes whereas one of my students, an ex Judoka, opted to use the throwing technique (though he had to step a long way and was relying heavily on partner compliance throughout - they were just learning the drills for the first time).
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Two person kata sets (flow drills) are great training. Thanks for sharing.
     
  6. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    In the interests of getting to grips with kata more, here's an interpretation for the bunkai (traditional, rather than 'street' application for now) of Nijushiho. And here's the video to hopefully make following my points easier:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVe0VtPog5c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVe0VtPog5c[/ame]

    LH = Left Hand | RH = Right Hand - Used when I think clarification is needed. The numbers relate to the section of movement, as opposed to individual techniques:

    1) LH - Haito to temple
    RH - Jam head (if you see what I mean)

    2) LH - Roll hand over back of head to bend opp. over - grab head/hair and pull
    RH - Hikite

    3) Punch to head

    4) RH - Grab head/hair
    LH - (Slow) empi to throad

    5) Both - circular movement to prevent grab, followed by double strike

    6) Grab shoulders --> Knee strike

    7) Turn --> RH - control head
    LH - age uke to throat, empi to chin

    8) RH - grab arm/stick --> pull opp. in and kekomi - same on opposite side

    9) Circular movement to disarm stick (preferably before attack), use stick to push opponent away

    10) Turn and strike opponent with stick

    11) (Throw stick out of reach -->) RH grab head/hair
    LH - rising knuckle strike

    12) (double hikite) drag opponent to floor

    13) Grab leg --> Hikite to unbalance/throw opp. Strike to head of kneeling opp. (?)

    14) Grab head --> empi to chin --> punch --> gedan barai for kick/arm break (utilising guide hand)

    15) Grab head, empi to the temple --> groin strike

    16) as before

    17) RH - strike to temple |
    ---> double strike
    LH - strike to floating ribs |

    18) Grab stick, twist, push away

    Yame.

    ______

    There are some bits where repeated I could possibly add in different things. There are also some points where I'm ont 100% convinced that what I've suggested could/would be wholly applicable - I've tried to stay as true to the techniques as possible.

    Hence the lack of crab claws!

    Any/all comments/suggestions appreciated.
     
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfaFLTs43vk"]YouTube - pre-JKA Niseishi kata, demonstrated by Harry Cook[/ame]

    You might want to consider Bunkai in the light of an older version. :)
     
  8. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    That's certainly interesting and I can see the issues it highlights. However, from my perspective I've trained with different stances and will therefore probably find the lower positions more useful (and immediately applicable in terms of my repertoire) at the moment.

    However, I do admit that grabbing a wrist and pulling them on to a kekomi is unlikely in an altercation ;)
     
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    hmmm... is it just me or is cook doing kake uke before the front kicks?

    also this = more conclusive evidence of what the old niseishi looked like, IMO:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59WgfXSxlgY"]YouTube - Degradation of Kata Essense in Shotokan[/ame]
     
  10. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    More conclusive evidence that it looksed practically identical.

    The more vids people post of how "Japanese karate has all the deadly killing techniques removed from the kata", the more I see "neko ashi dachi replaced with kokutsu dachi".

    Neko ashi dachi must be one hardcore stance.
     
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    very, very hardcore!

    the video is a bit fanatical, anyway, the owner of the channel seems a bit obsessed with that particular issue, however i suspect what cook has done is simply shorten the modern nijushiho and mix it with sequences from other kata (the neko-ashi and kick is from the kushanku series, done in ****o, wado and shorin), where in all other niseishi i've seen that movement does not have neko-ashi dachi (although the posture is similar) and does not use kake uke (which might have slipped in from cook's goju-ryu training). hell, the old nijushiho didn't even have kicks there (it was probably a stomp), and wado's has a low side kick.
     
  12. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    so, i did my weekly training with my KF classmate yesterday, and i sneakily took the chance to do some of my weird bunkai and then filmed it (and then sparred rather horribly, as seen in the member's sparring thread :p). excuse the occasional sound effects, i do them unconsciously :p.

    he doesn't know the forms, so he improvised a bit, as we just drilled for like five minutes each sequence and then filmed a few reps each on both sides. there's minimal footwork since with the camera we had to stay on one angle, but meh, it's just a matter of adding footwork to complement the techniques and to make the initial attack more feasible. also, i need to be taller.

    apps 1 and 2: opening moves from the second pinan/heian:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS46eLdEfW4"]YouTube - bunkai 1[/ame]

    blocking to the outside (in hindsight, we should have used a sidestep), controlling or hitting with the first tettsui, then attacking with the second one.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVCwwvAIOWc"]YouTube - bunkai 2[/ame]

    blocking high with the rear hand (again, feet/body positioning could be better), then covering the low-line and striking where available with the two tettsui.

    apps 3 and 4: opening moves of naihanchi/tekki shodan: same apps i posted before and did in my other video, i think they're in page 2 or 3)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8PtY0lzDOs"]YouTube - bunkai 3[/ame]

    bridge and immediately charge in with an elbow to the back then immediately try to control the arm and go for a takedown over your thigh (or if the opponent leans forwards, tettsui to the groin and kagizuki to the face). the hikite hand can be used to control the wrist and apply pressure to the elbow with your abdomen.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vApc292wRG8"]YouTube - bunkai 4[/ame]

    same, but instead of bridging, you try to hit the opponent's face (the logic here, which may or not be solid, being that if you have a closed guard, a high-line attack will have to come from the outside so you shoot straight in to interrupt it) to make him flinch, then again elbow and arm control. here a takedown is not feasible, but you can always try to slam him into something or pull him down into a knee strike.

    app 5: the opening of shotokan's soochin, done against a one handed throat grab (since using this against a punch is a bit silly). note that i screwed up the footwork and did most reps with the other leg forwards. for ease of use i did the movement on only one side, as it's equally applicable to a grab with either hand.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-mgduDJDV4"]YouTube - bunkai 5[/ame]

    since the movement as done in the kata is only done starting with the right side, assuming a left handed grab, you slam the forearm into the elbow (we did it slowly, but the ideal way would be going for as much damage as possible, as fast as possible, else the rest of the app is useless since the opponent is still active, same as with the elbows in the naihanchi bunkai), then try to move the arm up, tettsui to whatever's closest, and charge in with bridging and punches (tate shuto and the double tsuki). with a right hand grab, you fan the arm in front of you (i didn't reach, but the ideal way would be a tettsui to the face) and slam it into the crook of the elbow, then proceed the same as in the other side.
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Interesting vids fish, thanks for sharing.
     
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    *has just had a heian/pinan yondan related epiphany*

    *facepalm*

    so simple...

    *facepalm* *facepalm* *facepalm*

    i can't believe i never thought of it before. i'm an idiot :p

    opening moves, the weird open hand thingy (hell, most of you probably thought of this one already): rear hand defends with jodan shuto uke, lead hand attacks with shuto uchi.

    9 and a half years of training and i only just figure this out? someone shoot me for not realizing something this obvious before.

    ...aaaand on further research didier lupo did it first but with a (teisho/kumade thingy), so now i look like i'm copying him :(
     
  15. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    Attached Files:

  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    because i'm bored:

    opening of either of the gekisai kata, as well as fukyugata ni (chi no kata in some ****o-ryu lineages):

    opens to the left side with a jodan age uke, an oi zuki and a step backwards into shiko-dachi with gedan barai, then repeats symmetrically to the other side.

    intercept a circular attack at the forearm with the age-uke, using the off-hand to control the shoulder or as a lapel grab. step behind the opponent, putting your leg behind his, while using the punching motion to unbalance him ala judo's o soto gake*, either via face-punch, palm strike or simply pushing (you an also elbow him in the face if you're already too close), then twist his arm (external rotation**), locking the arm with the crossing position of the gedan barai (his hand under your armpit, your lead arm overhooking and pulling the elbow up, your rear hand controlling the shoulder and upper arm), and step back to secure the hold if he tries to escape (then you can drop into a juji gatame or something).

    *[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM11NEW1f3g&feature=related"]O-soto-gake - YouTube[/ame]
    **http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder.html#anchor110483
     
  17. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    bored, so here's more for naihanchi/tekki, specifically the nami-ashi sequence:

    training biomechanics for sweeping from clinch range:

    1- outwards movement: the hand that did the uppercut/backfist is used as a grab to the back of the head, and the other hand is dragging the opponent's arm across their torso (on the first instance, left hand hooks back of neck, right hand pulls right arm across). get really close, sweep with nami ashi (can also headbutt here) and use the arm motion to pull the neck in order to take the opponent down.

    2- inwards movement: same basic principle, this time grabbing the shoulder on the same side with the main hand, and dragging in the same side arm with the pulling hand (so on the first sequence, left hand grabs right shoulder, right hand drags left arm across). get close, sweep, and this time push the shoulder down to take down the opponent.

    tl;dr, less-specific version: drag one of the opponent's arms across his body, hook his neck or shoulder, sweep, headbutt if you want and pull/push him to the ground depending on position.
     
  18. Ives

    Ives Mokuteki o motte hajimeru

    I reckon this YouTube Channel might be of interest to the viewers of this thread.
    Onemunitebunkai's Channel and the full website by the makers One Munite Bunkai.
    Personally I like their down to earth appraoch and simple demonstrations.
     
  19. lma

    lma Valued Member

    Cheers Ives
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    KISS principle application for the double punch in tekki/naihanchi: you put your thigh behind the opponent's thigh, and you shove him to the side to trip him over your leg.
     

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